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From: Jim Holsenback
Subject: Documentation Migration
Date: 18 Jan 2009 15:15:58
Message: <497347ae@news.povray.org>
Hey Everyone,

Now that the povwiki is backonline I thought I'd let you folks in on what 
I've been up to ....
I did some looking around on the povwiki and I see that there have been a 
couple of attempts made. Curious what stalled the efforts?

Chris has supplied me with the documentation "input" side files and I've 
written a perl script that builds each book one section at a time. I've 
loaded that output into my wiki "sandbox" and have almost completed a QA of 
EVERY page. It's not looking too bad. I have so far just found one group of 
tags that I missed (<dd>, <dl>, <dt> and corresponding ending tags). I'm 
going to have to reread what W3C has to say about that but my first read 
says they favor <ul>,<li>, <ol> now. There is also one other problem with 
how the wiki renders some tags that follow the occurrence of the </p><p> 
tags. More than several input side docs have EXACTLY this occurrence. If you 
think about it ... it's kind of bad form to signal the end of one paragraph 
and the beginning of another all on one line like that. My first cut will be 
to have my perl script deal with it. If I have time I'll see if it's really 
a bug with wiki (html passes it on just fine btw) and follow up. Once I get 
the files all into wiki format I'll need to open that PHP book I got for 
Christmas and start writting the wiki extensions that will extract the 
documentation in it's various flavors. Hope I can ask for help if I need it. 
Any PHP programmers out there?

Finally, I'm going to be building into the Documentation namespace and I see 
some files already there. Since I'm still a ways off from posting content 
it's not a problem yet, but will eventually have to be dealt with. At this 
point deleting is probably NOT the right thing to do. I noticed that some of 
these files made use of wiki Category and I seem to recall a gothcha 
associated with deleting files that are in a Category. The safe bet would be 
to rename them, so 60 days from the date of this post I'm going to rename 
those files. PLEASE say something now if you have concerns about those 
files.

Jim


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From: clipka
Subject: Re: Documentation Migration
Date: 18 Jan 2009 16:05:00
Message: <web.4973524527ae3e8bfb23a32b0@news.povray.org>
"Jim Holsenback" <jho### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
> There is also one other problem with
> how the wiki renders some tags that follow the occurrence of the </p><p>
> tags. More than several input side docs have EXACTLY this occurrence. If you
> think about it ... it's kind of bad form to signal the end of one paragraph
> and the beginning of another all on one line like that.

Not really. It may reduce legibility of the source code (though I'd say that
properly used it can actually increase it), but source beauty is not required
by the W3C - just well-formedness and other such constraints, and from that
point of view </p><p> is perfectly fine HTML code.

It's a bit weird that this </p><p> construct is not handled properly by wiki; in
fact, it was not uncommon as a replacement for the old-style (not well-formed)
single <p> for paragraph dividers during the days of transition.


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From: Jim Holsenback
Subject: Re: Documentation Migration
Date: 18 Jan 2009 16:36:30
Message: <49735a8e@news.povray.org>
"clipka" <nomail@nomail> wrote in message 
news:web.4973524527ae3e8bfb23a32b0@news.povray.org...
> "Jim Holsenback" <jho### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
>> it's kind of bad form to signal the end of one paragraph
>> and the beginning of another all on one line like that.
>
> Not really. It may reduce legibility of the source code (though I'd say 
> that
> properly used it can actually increase it),

You know I suppose I see both sides of this arg .... style preferences are 
just that .... preferences.

> It's a bit weird that this </p><p> construct is not handled properly by 
> wiki; in
> fact, it was not uncommon as a replacement for the old-style (not 
> well-formed)
> single <p> for paragraph dividers during the days of transition.

My trouble shooting isn't complete, but yes I was suprised as well.
Wiki accepts certain html tags (<em> and <code>) among others. During my QA 
I found they had problems, until I found a preceeding offender and separated 
them .... the jury is still out;-)

Jim


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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Documentation Migration
Date: 18 Jan 2009 19:45:55
Message: <497386f3$1@news.povray.org>
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 11:16:05 -0400, Jim Holsenback wrote:

> I did some looking around on the povwiki and I see that there have been
> a couple of attempts made. Curious what stalled the efforts?

With my efforts, it was largely a change in job responsibilities that 
affected my available time.

Jim


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From: Jim Holsenback
Subject: Re: Documentation Migration
Date: 18 Jan 2009 20:05:05
Message: <49738b71@news.povray.org>
"Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message 
news:497386f3$1@news.povray.org...
> On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 11:16:05 -0400, Jim Holsenback wrote:
>
>> I did some looking around on the povwiki and I see that there have been
>> a couple of attempts made. Curious what stalled the efforts?
>
> With my efforts, it was largely a change in job responsibilities that
> affected my available time.

Winter is my down time so I was glad for something to keep me busy. I see 
from your wiki files that you started the unix section. My perl script has 
things pretty automated. The challenge will be the get the data back out 
like we want. All that's pretty much laid out in the input side 
documentation package, so once I learn a few PHP-ism's it should basically 
be a port of the exsisting templates and code.

Jim


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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Documentation Migration
Date: 19 Jan 2009 05:52:00
Message: <49741500@news.povray.org>
On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 16:05:04 -0400, Jim Holsenback wrote:

> "Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message
> news:497386f3$1@news.povray.org...
>> On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 11:16:05 -0400, Jim Holsenback wrote:
>>
>>> I did some looking around on the povwiki and I see that there have
>>> been a couple of attempts made. Curious what stalled the efforts?
>>
>> With my efforts, it was largely a change in job responsibilities that
>> affected my available time.
> 
> Winter is my down time so I was glad for something to keep me busy. I
> see from your wiki files that you started the unix section. My perl
> script has things pretty automated. The challenge will be the get the
> data back out like we want. All that's pretty much laid out in the input
> side documentation package, so once I learn a few PHP-ism's it should
> basically be a port of the exsisting templates and code.

Well, I didn't really start any section, I more or less just grabbed that 
section because I'm a Linux user - but I was just looking for a place to 
start seeing if I could translate things and preserve the old formatting 
as well (IOW, I was looking to do it in a way that would facilitate 
exporting back to the povdoc format, like you laid out above).

In retrospect, maybe the better way to approach that would've been 
through a Mediawiki plugin that understood the povdoc format.  I'm no php 
programming whiz, though - that would definitely have taken some time to 
develop. :-)

Without getting into the gory details, I'm hoping by March that things 
will have settled down at work and I can pick up on some of the povdoc 
stuff and wiki stuff then.

Jim


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From: Eddie
Subject: Re: Documentation Migration
Date: 21 Jan 2009 01:32:58
Message: <49767b4a@news.povray.org>
"Jim Henderson" <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote in message 
news:497386f3$1@news.povray.org...
> On Sun, 18 Jan 2009 11:16:05 -0400, Jim Holsenback wrote:
>
>> I did some looking around on the povwiki and I see that there have been
>> a couple of attempts made. Curious what stalled the efforts?
>
> With my efforts, it was largely a change in job responsibilities that
> affected my available time.
>
> Jim

For my part I had hoped that people would start jumping in and helping out. 
When it became clear that the majority were going to leave it to two or 
three people to do the work I bailed out.

Cheers
Eddie


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From: Jim Holsenback
Subject: Re: Documentation Migration
Date: 21 Jan 2009 11:30:55
Message: <4977076f@news.povray.org>
"Eddie" <non### [at] nowherecom> wrote in message news:49767b4a@news.povray.org...
> For my part I had hoped that people would start jumping in and helping 
> out. When it became clear that the majority were going to leave it to two 
> or three people to do the work I bailed out.
>
> Cheers
> Eddie

That's too bad. It seems that documentation is always the last thing most 
people care to work on.

I'm very close to having content ready. I think I can get the perl script 
changes and additions (that came from my first run at the data) done today. 
The tedious part of QAing the results will take a little longer. Once I get 
the content in the povwiki perhaps users will be more inclined to get 
involved and help with the clean up. I see that from some of the earlier 
threads in this news group that there are passages that could use some 
tweaking.

As far as the files that are already there .... I had a rather "doh!" moment 
the other day!

They are going to be OK right where they are for now and will become a house 
keeping issue for later as the naming convention I'm using is slightly 
different with the exception of Documentation:Contents which happens to be 
my starting place as well.

Eddie .... if you have PHP experience maybe work on the wiki extensions 
might start sooner. If not it's going to have to wait until I'm up to speed.

Jim


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From: Eddie
Subject: Re: Documentation Migration
Date: 22 Jan 2009 03:48:08
Message: <4977ec78$1@news.povray.org>
"Jim Holsenback" <jho### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message 
news:4977076f@news.povray.org...
> [...]
> Eddie .... if you have PHP experience maybe work on the wiki extensions 
> might start sooner. If not it's going to have to wait until I'm up to 
> speed.

Jim, I don't know PHP but I suspect you're approaching this the wrong way.

You don't need to create PHP scripts, you simply need to create one or more 
XML documents with the text of the pages in the WIKI text format.

You can download a few pages to see what the format looks like:
http://wiki.povray.org/content/Special:Export

Once they're ready you can e-mail them to an admin like Chris who can import 
them and the pages defined in the XML file(s) will get created.

Let me know if you need more detail.

Cheers
Eddie


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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: Documentation Migration
Date: 22 Jan 2009 05:49:46
Message: <497808fa@news.povray.org>
On Wed, 21 Jan 2009 19:48:12 -0800, Eddie wrote:

> "Jim Holsenback" <jho### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message
> news:4977076f@news.povray.org...
>> [...]
>> Eddie .... if you have PHP experience maybe work on the wiki extensions
>> might start sooner. If not it's going to have to wait until I'm up to
>> speed.
> 
> Jim, I don't know PHP but I suspect you're approaching this the wrong
> way.
> 
> You don't need to create PHP scripts, you simply need to create one or
> more XML documents with the text of the pages in the WIKI text format.
> 
> You can download a few pages to see what the format looks like:
> http://wiki.povray.org/content/Special:Export
> 
> Once they're ready you can e-mail them to an admin like Chris who can
> import them and the pages defined in the XML file(s) will get created.
> 
> Let me know if you need more detail.

The challenge isn't just exporting to a format to import to Wiki (what 
you suggest is where I started on it myself), but also to export 
modifications/updates put in the Wiki back into the povdoc format.  If 
you strip the povdoc tags from the file (which seemed to me to be 
necessary to use the xml format), then you can't easily re-insert them 
when you dump the pages again.

That's why a plugin seems like a better approach.  If the wiki preserves 
those formatting tags, then they can be re-exported.  The tags themselves 
are used for things like linking sections to the TOC and the index.

Jim


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