POV-Ray : Newsgroups : povray.windows : How to uninstall? Server Time
1 Dec 2022 00:39:46 EST (-0500)
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From: Mike Horvath
Subject: Re: How to uninstall?
Date: 3 Jul 2017 22:03:12
Message: <595af760$1@news.povray.org>
On 7/3/2017 2:38 AM, clipka wrote:
> Am 03.07.2017 um 05:37 schrieb Mike Horvath:
>> On 7/2/2017 3:17 AM, clipka wrote:
>>> The proper way to do this stunt would be first of all to use a user
>>> account with the privilege to obtain admin privileges. As such a user,
>>> you would then invoke Windows Explorer via "run as admin" (which would
>>> prompt a UAC popup to grant you admin privileges for this instance of
>>> Windows Explorer), access the directory in question, and finally close
>>> Windows Explorer again (which would revoke the admin privileges again,
>>> because they were limited to the instance of the program anyway).
>>>
>>
>> I was unable to accomplish this in Windows 7, so I did some research. It
>> seems Microsoft disabled this capability after Windows XP. Maybe you
>> should actually test your advice first before offering any?
>>
>>
https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/windows/en-US/2a366967-f9fb-4010-81f3-94dc15c86ad3/run-explorer-as-a-different-user?forum=w7itprosecurity
> 
> Don't confuse "run as different user" with "run as admin": The former
> would actually allow you to run the program as a different user (which
> in XP times may have had admin privileges); the latter allows you to run
> the program with admin privileges, without switching user accounts.
> 

On Windows 7 I have been using "Run as administrator".

> I wasn't aware that Microsoft has stipped the "run as admin" from the
> context menu of the link; but you can still run it as admin by
> navigating to "C:\Windows", right-clicking "explorer.exe", and choosing
> "run as admin".
> 

They didn't. The link still exists. It just has no effect as of Windows 
Vista. On Windows 7 your second suggestion makes no difference. The 
result is the same.


> That said, yes, I should probably have tested my advice: It turns out
> that you don't even need to run Windows Explorer as admin to access
> other users' directories. If you are using an account that has UAC
> privilege, Windows Explorer will prompt you for UAC elevation "on the
> fly" when you click on a folder you don't normally have access to.
> 
> 

As I explained earlier, doing this grants User A *permanent* access to 
all of User B's files. If User B's files are located in "C:\Users\User 
B\Documents\POV-Ray", then User A gets access to "C:\Users\UserB" and 
all sub-folders, which I don't want. Read the prompt more closely.


>> Further, even if this worked, it would not help when using the File >
>> Open command inside POV-Ray.
> 
> If you were relying on UAC rather than the outdated (for end users)
> approach of using separate accounts, you wouldn't have that problem:
> You'd click on the other user's directory, would be prompted with a UAC
> dialog, and be perfectly fine.
> 

This is a security/privacy issue. User B gets access to all documents 
belonging to User A, whether they have anything to do with POV-Ray or not.


Mike


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From: Mike Horvath
Subject: Re: How to uninstall?
Date: 3 Jul 2017 22:09:19
Message: <595af8cf$1@news.povray.org>
On 7/3/2017 3:38 AM, clipka wrote:
>> Every other program ever has asked me for privileges during installation
>> if needed.
> 
> Virtually no installer does that. Most rely on the operating system
> asking you for privileges /before/ the installer actually runs.
> 

Why not also the POV-Ray installer? Can't it also advertise that it 
needs elevated privileges?


Mike


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From: Mike Horvath
Subject: Re: How to uninstall?
Date: 3 Jul 2017 22:43:02
Message: <595b00b6$1@news.povray.org>
On 6/28/2017 4:30 PM, clipka wrote:
> Am 28.06.2017 um 20:50 schrieb Mike Horvath:
>> On 6/28/2017 12:28 PM, clipka wrote:
>>> But it doesn't make much sense to offer an "install for all users"
>>> option if that only installs start menu shortcuts without a mechanism to
>>> distribute the actual user-modifiable files to all users, as such an
>>> option would be seriously misleading.
>>>
>>
>> Not informing users that they can't install POV-Ray for non-admin
>> accounts is also seriously misleading.
> 
> Did anyone say you can't do /that/?
> 
> Just install while logged in with the non-admin account, but choose an
> install location to which that user account has write access, e.g.
> `%LOCALAPPDATA%/POV-Ray/v3.7`. That should do the trick.
> 
> 

This is possible, but not recommended according to members of Super User:

https://superuser.com/questions/199360/is-installing-programs-outside-of-the-default-program-files-directory-wise
https://serverfault.com/questions/120681/how-important-is-it-to-install-on-the-program-files-folder



> While it may not be standard knowledge how to install software for a
> non-admin user, I think it is reasonably fair to expect such knowledge
> from anyone using a non-standard Windows installation where they're
> deliberately depriving their user account from the possibility of
> temporarily elevating their access privileges to admin level.
> 

I also asked on Super User whether it's a good idea not to use an admin 
account for day-to-day activities:

https://superuser.com/questions/1225124/admin-rights-on-non-server-windows-installations

It seems it is somewhat a matter of opinion, but not uncommon, and 
definitely not a bad idea.


Mike


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From: Mike Horvath
Subject: Re: How to uninstall?
Date: 3 Jul 2017 22:58:17
Message: <595b0449@news.povray.org>
On 7/3/2017 10:43 PM, Mike Horvath wrote:
> On 6/28/2017 4:30 PM, clipka wrote:
>> Am 28.06.2017 um 20:50 schrieb Mike Horvath:
>>> On 6/28/2017 12:28 PM, clipka wrote:
>>>> But it doesn't make much sense to offer an "install for all users"
>>>> option if that only installs start menu shortcuts without a 
>>>> mechanism to
>>>> distribute the actual user-modifiable files to all users, as such an
>>>> option would be seriously misleading.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not informing users that they can't install POV-Ray for non-admin
>>> accounts is also seriously misleading.
>>
>> Did anyone say you can't do /that/?
>>
>> Just install while logged in with the non-admin account, but choose an
>> install location to which that user account has write access, e.g.
>> `%LOCALAPPDATA%/POV-Ray/v3.7`. That should do the trick.
>>
>>
> 
> This is possible, but not recommended according to members of Super User:
> 
>
https://superuser.com/questions/199360/is-installing-programs-outside-of-the-default-program-files-directory-wise

> 
>
https://serverfault.com/questions/120681/how-important-is-it-to-install-on-the-program-files-folder

> 
> 
> 
> 
>> While it may not be standard knowledge how to install software for a
>> non-admin user, I think it is reasonably fair to expect such knowledge
>> from anyone using a non-standard Windows installation where they're
>> deliberately depriving their user account from the possibility of
>> temporarily elevating their access privileges to admin level.
>>
> 
> I also asked on Super User whether it's a good idea not to use an admin 
> account for day-to-day activities:
> 
>
https://superuser.com/questions/1225124/admin-rights-on-non-server-windows-installations

> 
> 
> It seems it is somewhat a matter of opinion, but not uncommon, and 
> definitely not a bad idea.
> 
> 
> Mike

Also, I don't understand what /"depriving their user account from the 
possibility of temporarily elevating their access privileges to admin 
level"/ means. I don't think this is even possible in Windows.


Mike


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From: clipka
Subject: Re: How to uninstall?
Date: 4 Jul 2017 03:08:24
Message: <595b3ee8@news.povray.org>
Am 04.07.2017 um 04:03 schrieb Mike Horvath:

>>> Further, even if this worked, it would not help when using the File >
>>> Open command inside POV-Ray.
>>
>> If you were relying on UAC rather than the outdated (for end users)
>> approach of using separate accounts, you wouldn't have that problem:
>> You'd click on the other user's directory, would be prompted with a UAC
>> dialog, and be perfectly fine.
> 
> This is a security/privacy issue. User B gets access to all documents
> belonging to User A, whether they have anything to do with POV-Ray or not.

If you are an admin of a computer that may be used by multiple users,
then I agree, admin/user separation makes sense in that case.

But in that case you also should have enough background knowledge to
work around the problems that you're presented with when installing
POV-Ray in such a setting.


That doesn't mean that the POV-Ray installer is perfect. But it means
that I think you should be less vocal in your complaining about it.


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From: clipka
Subject: Re: How to uninstall?
Date: 4 Jul 2017 03:08:52
Message: <595b3f04$1@news.povray.org>
Am 04.07.2017 um 04:09 schrieb Mike Horvath:
> On 7/3/2017 3:38 AM, clipka wrote:
>>> Every other program ever has asked me for privileges during installation
>>> if needed.
>>
>> Virtually no installer does that. Most rely on the operating system
>> asking you for privileges /before/ the installer actually runs.
>>
> 
> Why not also the POV-Ray installer? Can't it also advertise that it
> needs elevated privileges?

It does.


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From: Mike Horvath
Subject: Re: How to uninstall?
Date: 6 Jul 2017 00:45:28
Message: <595dc068$1@news.povray.org>
On 7/4/2017 3:08 AM, clipka wrote:
> Am 04.07.2017 um 04:09 schrieb Mike Horvath:
>> On 7/3/2017 3:38 AM, clipka wrote:
>>>> Every other program ever has asked me for privileges during installation
>>>> if needed.
>>>
>>> Virtually no installer does that. Most rely on the operating system
>>> asking you for privileges /before/ the installer actually runs.
>>>
>>
>> Why not also the POV-Ray installer? Can't it also advertise that it
>> needs elevated privileges?
> 
> It does.
> 

Couldn't it also advertise this to non-admins?

Mike


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From: Mike Horvath
Subject: Re: How to uninstall?
Date: 6 Jul 2017 00:50:43
Message: <595dc1a3$1@news.povray.org>
On 7/4/2017 3:08 AM, clipka wrote:
> Am 04.07.2017 um 04:03 schrieb Mike Horvath:
> 
>>>> Further, even if this worked, it would not help when using the File >
>>>> Open command inside POV-Ray.
>>>
>>> If you were relying on UAC rather than the outdated (for end users)
>>> approach of using separate accounts, you wouldn't have that problem:
>>> You'd click on the other user's directory, would be prompted with a UAC
>>> dialog, and be perfectly fine.
>>
>> This is a security/privacy issue. User B gets access to all documents
>> belonging to User A, whether they have anything to do with POV-Ray or not.
> 
> If you are an admin of a computer that may be used by multiple users,
> then I agree, admin/user separation makes sense in that case.
> 
> But in that case you also should have enough background knowledge to
> work around the problems that you're presented with when installing
> POV-Ray in such a setting.
> 
> 
> That doesn't mean that the POV-Ray installer is perfect. But it means
> that I think you should be less vocal in your complaining about it.
> 

Well, when trying to figure this out for myself I have gotten mostly 
non-helpful suggestions that don't work in my OS.


Mike


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From: Mike Horvath
Subject: Re: How to uninstall?
Date: 6 Jul 2017 01:24:54
Message: <595dc9a6$1@news.povray.org>
On 6/23/2017 6:01 PM, clipka wrote:
> Am 23.06.2017 um 22:51 schrieb Mike Horvath:
> 
>> Next, I tried installing RC1 using my non-admin account, but the
>> installation failed when trying to write to "C:\Program
>> Files\POV-Ray\v3.7\agpl-3.0.txt". After switching to my admin account,
>> the installation completed successfully, but did not copy the Start Menu
>> items and assorted include files to my non-admin accounts. Is there no
>> way to install POV-Ray for all users?
> 
> No, not really. This is a systematic issue with modern Windows (and any
> multi-user system, actually), where technically the user-modifiable
> portions of any given program need to be installed for each user
> individually.
> 
> To my knowledge, running "pvengine.exe /INSTALL" should perform this
> step for the current user.
> 
> Theoretically there would be a way to "advertise" this step during
> installation, i.e. make it known to Windows so that it can automatically
> be executed when a user runs POV-Ray for the first time, but that's
> tricky to do, and might not be possible with the Nullsoft Installer
> System (NSIS) we're using to create the installer.
> 
> The alternative would be to let POV-Ray test whether it is being run by
> the user for the first time, and in that case perform the step
> automatically, but again this needs some time and effort to implement
> cleanly.
> 

Can I write a wiki article on how to properly install POV-Ray? Where in 
the wiki should it go?


Mike


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From: clipka
Subject: Re: How to uninstall?
Date: 6 Jul 2017 03:59:35
Message: <595dede7@news.povray.org>
Am 06.07.2017 um 07:25 schrieb Mike Horvath:
> Can I write a wiki article on how to properly install POV-Ray? Where in
> the wiki should it go?

You may want to ask this on the `povray.documentation.inbuilt` newsgroup.


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