On Tue, 14 Jan 2014 23:40:46 +0000, Doctor John wrote:

> So, you've been a member, have you? Please don't make assumptions based
> on zero experience.

One might even say it's *ahem* arrogant to make such assumptions, 
wouldn't they?

Like the charge that all members of Mensa are arrogant.  I know a few 
myself, and at least the ones I know are pretty decent people.

Jim

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

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On 15/01/14 01:59, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Well said, John.  I couldn't agree with you more.  Especially here in the 
> US, and as a smarter person in school growing up, I was ridiculed, 
> teased, and bullied (though my "bullying" wasn't anywhere near what kids 
> these days seem to be subjected to).
> 

I feel for the younger you. I was lucky in being strong enough to take
care of myself. There are one or two people out there who will still
remember the effect of a knee in the groin - not a dignified response,
but effective just the same.

> All because I was smart, somewhat socially awkward, and "gifted" (gawd, I 
> *hate* that term) generally and at playing the violin.
> 

At last! Someone else who played the violin. Do you still play or did
you do as I did and give up because of the bullying? I took up the
guitar instead - gave me more street-cred.

> Meanwhile, we wonder (at least here in the US) why education is failing.
> 
> I guess it's because we don't believe in God hard enough.  Yeah, that 
> must be it - it certainly can't be because STEM education standards 
> absolutely suck in a lot of the US.  It couldn't possibly have to do with 
> anything about believing that "creationism" is science and "evolution" is 
> a myth.  Couldn't f*cking have anything to do with that.
> 

We seem to be getting a similar mindset over here in UK.

> Kinda a hot button for me, and I'm overtired and a bit stressed.  Sorry, 
> carry on. ;)

No need to apologise. I am aware of (some of) the complexities in your life.

John (raising a cup of coffee in Jim's direction)
-- 
Protect the Earth
It was not given to you by your parents
You hold it in trust for your children

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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Unfortunately, they do allow
> women in

Silly me...I thought it was about being able to walk into a room full of 
people and have a conversation with some of them, without having to stop 
and explain what I just said every couple of sentences.  Or, just 
possibly, without having to face the sullen, cowlike stares of people 
who assume that women cannot possibly be very bright.

--Sherry Shaw

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On 15/01/14 05:48, Sherry K. Shaw wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> Unfortunately, they do allow
>> women in
> 
> Silly me...I thought it was about being able to walk into a room full of
> people and have a conversation with some of them, without having to stop
> and explain what I just said every couple of sentences.  Or, just
> possibly, without having to face the sullen, cowlike stares of people
> who assume that women cannot possibly be very bright.

Hi, Sherry. Long time, no see.
Unfortunately, there appear to be a few unreconstructed chauvinists on
the group atm.
FWIW my first two bosses in the real world were women and they taught me
more than the others combined

John
-- 
Protect the Earth
It was not given to you by your parents
You hold it in trust for your children

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Hi, John.  Nice to encounter a friendly voice (so to speak) this dark 
and dreary night.

--Sherry Shaw

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On 15/01/2014 5:48 AM, Sherry K. Shaw wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> Unfortunately, they do allow
>> women in
>
> Silly me...I thought it was about being able to walk into a room full of
> people and have a conversation with some of them, without having to stop
> and explain what I just said every couple of sentences.  Or, just
> possibly, without having to face the sullen, cowlike stares of people
> who assume that women cannot possibly be very bright.
>
Hi Sherry, your annual visit? Good to see you.

I don't think Patrick meant that the way you are taking it. I read it 
as, because they do let (and the word "let" is a signifier) women in. 
You can't criticise them for not letting women in. If you see what I mean?

Hmm! Thinks before posting.

That last sentence is more about my inability to express than your 
ability [as a woman {OMG (in these hallowed halls, what ever next?)} ;-) 
] to understand.

So don't bother your pretty little head about it. :-D
<Ducks, runs and hides behind Regan's petticoats.>

Love to your dog(s)

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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> Finally, scott, high IQ does _not_ equate to asocial behaviour and/or
> poor dress sense.

You must admit there is at least a bit of a correlation though, 
especially with intelligence in maths/proper science subjects?

> Your perception is skewed by the popular
> misconception, usually starting at school, that being intelligent makes
> you a nerd.

It's mainly by meeting people throughout university and in the 
workplace. At school we had to wear uniforms so everyone looked the same 
and dress sense didn't come in to it. At university the math/engineering 
students dressed differently, most times you could spot one just by 
looks, heck still now when watching Universtiy Challenge you can usually 
spot them before they open their mouth. Also you only have to look at 
the Christmas dinner at my old company (where almost all non-admin staff 
had a PhD or an Oxbridge degree in science) and note the dress sense, 
compared to where I am now (a manufacturing company) - the difference is 
very obvious.

> I was lucky. Firstly, my family were all above-average in intelligence;
> that gave me a good support group to fall back on.

I was lucky, my dad brought me home a BBC B from work before I started 
school, I was far more interested in writing programs than going out and 
playing with friends. The most annoying thing was being right in the 
middle of some complex piece of coding and my mum would force me to "get 
outside" and go and play.

BTW I only have a bit of dress sense now because my gf forces it onto me :-)

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On 14/01/2014 11:40 PM, Doctor John wrote:
> ....and how are we to judge ability then? A BA, MA or even PhD (or other
> qualifications) certificate says certain things about you.


In the most part it says that you can pass academic exams. And have the 
wherewithal not to earn, in your young adult years.

> Apply for a
> job through me with one of those in your hand and I would be willing to
> give you a hearing. Come to me and say "I'm good but I can't be arsed to
> prove it"

Sad really that, that attitude still exists.
You don't find it in barrow boys who make good.

> then you won't even get through the front door.
>

But there is generally a back door for the tradesmen.

> John (still smiling but feeling the strain)

Keep your pecker up, old chap. It is always darkest before the dawn.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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> Well said, John.  I couldn't agree with you more.  Especially here in the
> US, and as a smarter person in school growing up, I was ridiculed,
> teased, and bullied (though my "bullying" wasn't anywhere near what kids
> these days seem to be subjected to).
>
> All because I was smart, somewhat socially awkward, and "gifted" (gawd, I
> *hate* that term) generally and at playing the violin.
>
> But people who are good at bashing other people's heads in playing
> football, or dunking a ball through a hoop with a net - they're "heroes".
>
> Meanwhile, we wonder (at least here in the US) why education is failing.

The problem is, and it's the same in the UK, it's "cool" to be dumb, or 
at least appear to be dumb. For what I've heard it's not so much like 
that in Asian countries though. I don't know how you would go about 
changing it, perhaps separate out by ability at a much earlier age?

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On 14/01/2014 5:02 PM, scott wrote:
> If you're intelligent at something

Can you be, intelligent at something?

And someone please explain to me, what IQ is?

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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