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From: Orchid Win7 v1
Subject: Monads in C#
Date: 13 Mar 2013 17:30:07
Message: <5140efdf@news.povray.org>
OK, so just for giggles, I tried to implement monads in C#.

The short version: It appears that I can create a class with forms a 
monad, however it appears to be impossible to define the concept of 
"being a monad" such that you can write code which polymorphically works 
for any monad.


The long version:

It appears that C# generics is too weak to express the necessary type 
relationships that describe what a monad is. I suspect C++ templates 
probably can do this, but C# can't. This rules out the possibility of 
writing an abstract class or an interface which describes all possible 
monads, and then writing code against that interface.

On the other hand, it appears to be quite possible to write code that 
works on one *specific* monad, decided at development-time.

OK, so let me recap what the heck a monad is. It's so abstract that it's 
awkward to put into works, but it's not particularly complicated. If the 
class Foo forms a monad, that basically means that an object of type 
Foo<int> can somehow "supply" an integer. Now there are several possible 
ways it might do that.

The simplest way is if Foo is some kind of data container. For example, 
a List<int> can "supply" integers in that it *contains* integers. So 
many sorts of container form a monad. Another way is if Foo represents 
some kind of "process". For example, Foo<int> might be some kind of 
parser object, which reads some text and parses an integer out of it. 
Most of these "process monads" have some kind of a Run() method that 
actually "executes" the action(s) in question. (The result might not be 
a simple int, of course; for example, a parser could return a parse 
error rather than an int, depending on the input supplied.)

Stepping back from that, if Foo<int> is simply an object that represents 
a supple of integers, then the Foo class forms a monad if we can define 
the following functions:

   public static Foo<T1> Inject(T1);
   public static Foo<T2> Map(Foo<T1>, Func<T1, T2>);
   public static Foo<T1> Join(Foo<Foo<T1>>);
   public static Foo<T2> Chain(Foo<T1>, Foo<T2>);
   public static Foo<T2> Bind(Foo<T1>, Func<T1, Foo<T2>>);

[This isn't quite valid C# syntax, but the meaning should be clear.]

This set is redundant; several of these functions can be defined in 
terms of each other. There are two possible minimal subsets:

- Inject() + Map() + Join()
- Inject() + Bind()

So what do all these functions do, then?

Inject() is simple enough. It takes a thing and constructs an object 
which produces that thing. For example, if Foo is a parser, then 
Inject(5) is a parser which consumes zero characters of input and just 
returns 5. It *always* returns 5, regardless of what input you run the 
parser on. (Since it ignores input anyway.) If Foo is a data container, 
then Inject(5) is just a 1-element container with a 5 in it.

The Map() function is simple enough. It takes a function and applies it 
to every element of a collection. Except that a monad isn't necessarily 
a collection. For example, I might have some parser that returns a 
single digit character, and a function that converts a digit character 
into an actual integer. Using Map(), I end up with a parser that returns 
integers not characters. (Notice that we still haven't *run* any 
parsers, just constructed a more complex parser out of a simpler one.)

If you use Map() to apply a function which produces another Foo, then 
clearly you're going to end up with a Foo<Foo<X>>. The Join() function 
unwraps a layer of wrapping. How this works depends on what the monad is 
(which is why it's definition is crucial). For a container, it's 
obvious; think about flattening a list of lists into a flat list. For 
parsers, it's taking a parser that produces a parser, and then running 
the inner parser to return the result of that. (It sounds more 
complicated than it is.)

The Bind() function actually takes a function that produces a Foo, in 
the way just described. You can think of it as taking a parser and a 
function which consults that parser's output and decides what parser to 
run next, returning that parser so that Bind() can run it. From the 
previous paragraph, it should be obvious that Bind() = Map() + Join(). 
It may be less obvious that Map() = Bind() + Inject() and Join() = 
Bind() + the identity function. So either can be defined in terms of the 
other.

The Chain() function takes two parsers, runs the first one, and then 
runs the second one. It discards the output from the first and returns 
the output from the second. This is the clue to how to implement it; 
it's simply Bind(), given a function which ignores its input and always 
returns the same output.

So anyway, we can define Foo<> and then write the above functions, and 
then Foo<> can be used as a monad. But can we write an abstract 
specification of "monad" and have multiple classes implement it? Sadly 
not, as best as I can tell.

One might naively try this:

   public static Monad<T1> Inject(T1);
   public static Monad<T2> Bind(Monad<T1>, Func<T1, Monad<T2>>)

The first method is fine. But the second doesn't work at all! The 
*intent* is that "Monad" should refer to *the same class* at all times. 
But that isn't how object-oriented class inheritance works. The Bind() 
method is implemented specially for each type of monad. It has to "look 
into" the internal structure of both monad objects - which isn't 
possible if they aren't actually both of the necessary class.

Trying to use Map() and Join() instead is no better:

   public static Monad<T2> Map(Monad<T1>, Func<T1, T2>);
   public static Monad<T1> Join(Monad<Monad<T1>>);

Map() isn't too bad - although since its implementation changes for each 
sort of monad, this really ought to be an instance method rather than 
static. But Join() is again broken. As written, it will accept 
List<Parser<int>> and Parser<List<int>>, whereas we want it to accept 
only List<List<int>> or Parser<Parser<int>>.

If we refer to a *specific* monad class, these problems go away. But if 
we try to be abstract, there's no way to enforce the required 
constraints. The only option is run-time dynamic casting - yuck!

Hmm, all those static methods though... that doesn't sound very OO, does 
it? Well, Inject() looks very much like a "factory", so perhaps we can 
have a FooMonad class that contains a (non-static) Inject(), and the 
move Bind() et al to Foo itself?

   public sealed class FooMonad
   {
     public Foo<T1> Inject<T1>(T1 datum) {...}
   }

   public sealed class Foo<T>
   {
     public Foo<T2> Map<T2>(Func<T, T2> f) {...}
     public Foo<T2> Bind<T2>(Func<T, Foo<T2>> f) {...}
   }

Even here, trying to write a type signature for Join() is problematic. 
Basically Join() takes "this" and returns a Foo<T2> - but only if 
T=Foo<T2>. How do you say that in a type signature? The only real way 
around this is to artificially stuff Join() back into FooMonad.


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From: Anthony D  Baye
Subject: Re: Monads in C#
Date: 13 Mar 2013 18:25:01
Message: <web.5140fc41719a22bdd97ee2b90@news.povray.org>
Orchid Win7 v1 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> OK, so just for giggles, I tried to implement monads in C#.
>
> The short version: It appears that I can create a class with forms a
> monad, however it appears to be impossible to define the concept of
> "being a monad" such that you can write code which polymorphically works
> for any monad.
>
>
<snip>

Not sure I completely understand... The only functional language I've worked
with is LISP, and I only wrote one rather simple program in it, but in the
interest of learning...

Is this something that could be handled with a pure virtual base class which
defines those elements common to ALL monads and requires type-specific
definitions from implementers?

Or perhaps you'd need a mechanism like the STL sort routine which requires you
to pass it a compare function.

Again, I'm not sure I get the concept here...


Regards,
A.D.B.


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From: Warp
Subject: Re: Monads in C#
Date: 14 Mar 2013 12:58:46
Message: <514201c6@news.povray.org>
Anthony D. Baye <Sha### [at] spamnomorehotmailcom> wrote:
> Again, I'm not sure I get the concept here...

Nobody outside of functional programming understands monads. Nobody outside
of functional languages needs monads. What can be deduced from this?

-- 
                                                          - Warp


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From: Orchid Win7 v1
Subject: Re: Monads in C#
Date: 14 Mar 2013 16:02:14
Message: <51422cc6$1@news.povray.org>
On 14/03/2013 04:58 PM, Warp wrote:
> Nobody outside of functional programming understands monads. Nobody outside
> of functional languages needs monads. What can be deduced from this?

That nobody outside of functional programming realises that that class 
they just wrote is actually a slightly buggy implementation of a monad? ;-)


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From: Orchid Win7 v1
Subject: Re: Monads in C#
Date: 14 Mar 2013 16:07:18
Message: <51422df6$1@news.povray.org>
On 13/03/2013 10:22 PM, Anthony D. Baye wrote:

> Is this something that could be handled with a pure virtual base class which
> defines those elements common to ALL monads and requires type-specific
> definitions from implementers?

Again, the problem is that we need to write a method which examines TWO 
objects which must be of THE SAME class. I haven't yet found a way to 
specify that in C# (although I suspect C++ can probably do it).


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From: Warp
Subject: Re: Monads in C#
Date: 14 Mar 2013 16:24:39
Message: <51423207@news.povray.org>
Orchid Win7 v1 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> Again, the problem is that we need to write a method which examines TWO 
> objects which must be of THE SAME class.

I don't understand at all what that even means.

Start by explaining (briefly) what "examines" means in this context.

-- 
                                                          - Warp


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From: clipka
Subject: Re: Monads in C#
Date: 14 Mar 2013 16:59:52
Message: <51423a48$1@news.povray.org>
Am 14.03.2013 21:02, schrieb Orchid Win7 v1:
> On 14/03/2013 04:58 PM, Warp wrote:
>> Nobody outside of functional programming understands monads. Nobody
>> outside
>> of functional languages needs monads. What can be deduced from this?
>
> That nobody outside of functional programming realises that that class
> they just wrote is actually a slightly buggy implementation of a monad? ;-)

... or that that class they just wrote actually does all they'd need 
monads for in an OO rather than functional world? :-P


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From: Anthony D  Baye
Subject: Re: Monads in C#
Date: 14 Mar 2013 17:25:01
Message: <web.51423f23719a22bdd97ee2b90@news.povray.org>
Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
> Orchid Win7 v1 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> > Again, the problem is that we need to write a method which examines TWO
> > objects which must be of THE SAME class.
>
> I don't understand at all what that even means.
>
> Start by explaining (briefly) what "examines" means in this context.
>
> --
>                                                           - Warp

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2704652/monad-in-plain-english-for-the-oop-programmer-with-no-fp-background/2704795#
2704795

Still trying to wrap my head around it.

Regards,
A.D.B.


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From: Warp
Subject: Re: Monads in C#
Date: 14 Mar 2013 17:43:58
Message: <5142449e@news.povray.org>
Anthony D. Baye <Sha### [at] spamnomorehotmailcom> wrote:
>
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2704652/monad-in-plain-english-for-the-oop-programmer-with-no-fp-background/2704795#
> 2704795

> Still trying to wrap my head around it.

It almost looks like it's describing inheritance. What is

"First, what is an "amplifier of types"? By that I mean some system
which lets you take a type and turn it into a more special type. For
example, in C# consider Nullable<T>. This is an amplifier of types. It
lets you take a type, say int, and add a new capability to that type,
namely, that now it can be null when it couldn't before."

other than inheritance? The next paragraphs also seem to be talking
about inheritance.

Of course the text then proceeds into blabbering about something that's
hard to understand and seems quite inconsequential. Something about
binding (which sounds like dynamic binding in inheritance, but apparently
isn't?)

-- 
                                                          - Warp


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From: Orchid Win7 v1
Subject: Re: Monads in C#
Date: 14 Mar 2013 18:39:43
Message: <514251af$1@news.povray.org>
On 14/03/2013 08:24 PM, Warp wrote:
> Orchid Win7 v1<voi### [at] devnull>  wrote:
>> Again, the problem is that we need to write a method which examines TWO
>> objects which must be of THE SAME class.
>
> I don't understand at all what that even means.
>
> Start by explaining (briefly) what "examines" means in this context.

Consider another example: Let's say you want to do something like

   public abstract class Tree
   {
     ...
     public abstract Tree Union(Tree other);
     ...
   }

So we can now write SplayTree, HeapTree, SearchTree, etc as subclasses 
of Tree. But the thing is... you can only Union() two trees together if 
they are THE SAME TYPE of tree. So you can take the union of two 
SplayTrees, or the union of two HeapTrees, but NOT the union of a 
SplayTree and a HeapTree.

But the type signature above does not express this constraint. It says 
that you can union *any* two objects so long as they are both Trees - 
which is wrong.

That's the basic problem with writing a monad interface in C# (or Java, 
for that matter). You could do a run-time type check and throw an 
exception if the types don't match, of course. But I haven't yet figured 
out how to enforce the constraint at compile-time.

(Having asked some questions on stack overflow, it appears it might 
actually be possible in C# though... I'll give it a go tomorrow.)


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