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Patrick Elliott <kag### [at] gmail com> wrote:
> Strictly speaking, some of that might be vaguely true, if you a) ignore
> the number of them that where basically deists, b) the one or two that
> might have been pagans, or c) the fact that many, including Jefferson,
> might, if such a thing had been an option, declared themselves agnostic,
> or even atheist. The man, after all, rewrote the Bible, taking out every
> single thing in it that might have been called "supernatural", which I
> presume included creationism, Adam and Eve, in the sense most Christians
> understand, etc.
Besides, even if we assumed that all the Founding Fathers were 100%
fundamentalist creationist Christians and had the full intent on making
the United States a Christian theocracy... so what?
I have always wondered why Americans take the constitution and other
founding documents as Holy Scripture. They are the unchanging truth.
If the Founding Fathers intended for thing X, then that's the absolute
truth and it's set in stone forever, and cannot be changed, ever. It's
just a question of understanding what they meant.
Even the idea that the Founding Fathers might have been wrong, that they
were just flawed humans who lived in the 18th century, that they were not
perfect, is tantamous to blasphemy.
I don't know of any other country where the Constitution is considered
such a Holy Scripture that even the idea of correcting it, or even just
clarifying it, seems blasphemous.
--
- Warp
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On 20/12/2012 10:52 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 22:10:31 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>
>> >You, my friend are going to Hell for doubting the word of Mammon.
>> >To which you could reply. "Why this is hell, nor am I out of it"
> That's where the better party will be.;)
>
Partying aside, I don’t fancy spending the rest of eternity singing
“Hosannas”. With my voice that would be purgatory.
--
Regards
Stephen
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On 22/12/2012 8:30 AM, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Except, of course, they where not. The only evidence of Semites "in"
> Egypt, ever, is several hundred years earlier, when they temporarily
> ruled it, then got their asses kicked out. None of the dates, based on
> the Bible, line up with any pharaoh that could have done it. There is no
> evidence of mass famine, the loss of most of the male population of
> Eqypt (they would have either died in the army, or as "first born"
> during the plagues), no sign of them being attacked by their enemies
> during any time period it could have happened, based on the chronology,
> etc. Worse, there is evidence of his "people" having had settlements,
> for centuries, in the areas they supposedly wandered only 40 years (and
> its not even the right 40 years, but like.. again *prior* to the
> supposed Exodus.
Very interesting, I did not know any of that. You are obviously better
at research than I am, possibly you have a lower boredom level. ;-)
Do you have any references as I would like to read them before shooting
my mouth off.
--
Regards
Stephen
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On 22/12/2012 9:23 AM, Warp wrote:
> I have always wondered why Americans take the constitution and other
> founding documents as Holy Scripture. They are the unchanging truth.
> If the Founding Fathers intended for thing X, then that's the absolute
> truth and it's set in stone forever, and cannot be changed, ever.
You are not the only one to think that. It seems such a backward idea
for a progressive country.
> It's just a question of understanding what they meant.
>
And to do that they use Dr. Johnson's dictionary as the American
Constitution was written using it. I read somewhere (I can't find the
article) that about 200, of the dictionaries, a year are sent to America
to help interpret what was actually meant when their constitution was
written. (Don't take me up on that. Even I can see some questions that
should be asked. But it makes a nice story. I seem to remember that they
were sent as a gift. Maybe a plot by HM government's dirty tricks
department, to keep the rebels in the 18th Century. :-) .
> Even the idea that the Founding Fathers might have been wrong, that they
> were just flawed humans who lived in the 18th century, that they were not
> perfect, is tantamous to blasphemy.
>
I get that feeling too.
> I don't know of any other country where the Constitution is considered
> such a Holy Scripture that even the idea of correcting it, or even just
> clarifying it, seems blasphemous.
True. But it gives people a lot of amusement watching the hoops some
jump through, to justify their opinions. If it weren't to serious it
would be funny.
"To comma, or not to comma, that is the question:"
"The answer, my friend, lies dying in the wind."
To mangle two well known lines.
--
Regards
Stephen
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On 12/22/2012 2:38 AM, Stephen wrote:
> On 22/12/2012 8:30 AM, Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> Except, of course, they where not. The only evidence of Semites "in"
>> Egypt, ever, is several hundred years earlier, when they temporarily
>> ruled it, then got their asses kicked out. None of the dates, based on
>> the Bible, line up with any pharaoh that could have done it. There is no
>> evidence of mass famine, the loss of most of the male population of
>> Eqypt (they would have either died in the army, or as "first born"
>> during the plagues), no sign of them being attacked by their enemies
>> during any time period it could have happened, based on the chronology,
>> etc. Worse, there is evidence of his "people" having had settlements,
>> for centuries, in the areas they supposedly wandered only 40 years (and
>> its not even the right 40 years, but like.. again *prior* to the
>> supposed Exodus.
>
> Very interesting, I did not know any of that. You are obviously better
> at research than I am, possibly you have a lower boredom level. ;-)
> Do you have any references as I would like to read them before shooting
> my mouth off.
>
I could look around. Its not my research. Its stuff that people who have
more time and interest than I do have found out. However, a quick search
finds that even some Jewish people have some of the details:
http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Judaism/2004/12/Did-The-Exodus-Really-Happen.aspx?p=1
Ah, here is one that goes into more detail (rational wiki):
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_Exodus
I am sure, with some work, it would be possible to find details on the
time when they briefly ruled Egypt, and the other details. But, mostly,
just the stuff already on those pages, and the references they come
from, are damning enough, without including the total lack of pottery,
or other artifacts, that show any connection to the Semitic people,
during any of the possible time frames, in Egypt itself.
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On 12/22/2012 1:23 AM, Warp wrote:
> I have always wondered why Americans take the constitution and other
> founding documents as Holy Scripture. They are the unchanging truth.
> If the Founding Fathers intended for thing X, then that's the absolute
> truth and it's set in stone forever, and cannot be changed, ever. It's
> just a question of understanding what they meant.
>
Especially giving how nearly everything, including the idea of rule by
democracy, instead of via a king, and economics based on capitalism,
instead of communism, is about as anti-Christian as you can get, without
going full on, 'King and Country', and turning everyone else back into
peasants.
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On Sat, 22 Dec 2012 10:21:20 +0000, Stephen wrote:
> On 20/12/2012 10:52 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 22:10:31 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>>
>>> >You, my friend are going to Hell for doubting the word of Mammon.
>>> >To which you could reply. "Why this is hell, nor am I out of it"
>
>> That's where the better party will be.;)
>>
>>
> Partying aside, I don’t fancy spending the rest of eternity singing
> “Hosannas”. With my voice that would be purgatory.
I know what you mean. Also the idea of being separated from those I like
who "didn't make the cut" doesn't seem like any sort of reasonable
paradise.
Jim
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On Sat, 22 Dec 2012 00:36:18 -0800, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Well, California, and now one other state, has explicitly passed state
> laws that "deny" the purchase, or teaching, or revisionist history,
> and/or creationism, in schools, based on precisely this sort of nonsense
> being rewritten into text books, in Texas.
Interestingly, there's a school district in Louisiana that's done this as
well - Orleans Parish, IIRC.
Jim
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On 23/12/2012 2:20 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> I know what you mean. Also the idea of being separated from those I like
> who "didn't make the cut" doesn't seem like any sort of reasonable
> paradise.
I don't have to worry on that score. All the people I care for will be
there, passing a big juicy one around.
--
Regards
Stephen
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On Sun, 23 Dec 2012 17:28:48 +0000, Stephen wrote:
> On 23/12/2012 2:20 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> I know what you mean. Also the idea of being separated from those I
>> like who "didn't make the cut" doesn't seem like any sort of reasonable
>> paradise.
>
> I don't have to worry on that score. All the people I care for will be
> there, passing a big juicy one around.
:)
Jim
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