Everybody probably knows that there are some crazy (ok, delusional) people
who seriously believe in a flat Earth (for a reason that completely escapes
me, if mental illnesses or seriously low IQs are disregarded).

  That's not the only crazy hypothesis that some people seriously believe.
Another one is the hollow Earth hypothesis. There really are people out
there who seriously and honestly believe this (or at the very least consider
it plausible). And not only that the Earth is hollow, but that there's an
"inner sun" and an advanced civilization inside the Earth.

  There many several-hours-long pseudodocumentaries about this subject
(some even shown on TV channels such as the History Channel; go figure),
but for the life of me I cannot find even one single source that would
even *attempt* to explain the physics of this, which is what I would be
most interested in hearing (because it always amuses me when these people
try to struggle to explain how physical impossibilities are actually
possible). Granted, I have only skimmed through the many videos trying
to catch a glimpse of even the simples physical explanation, and I have
read the Wikipedia article on the subject, to no avail. For example one
pseudo-documentary goes on and on and on and on about ancient myths, more
recent myths, folklore, wild conspiracy theories (often including nazis)
and so on, but not even one single attempt at explaining the *physics* of
a hollow Earth with an "inner sun" and a civilization living inside there.

  In fact, most of these pseudodocumentaries are extremely vague about
the details. They often don't even mention *where* exactly this supposed
advanced civilization resides. On the inner surface of the hollow crust?
Somewhere else? Where? They all only talk about a civilization living inside
the Earth without going into more detail. Just inside there, somewhere,
somehow.

  The thing is, even if the shell of the hollow Earth would be strong enough
to not to collapse under its own gravity (which btw is physically impossible,
as no material is even nearly that strong, taking into account the mass of
the Earth), anything on the inner surface of this shell would fall into the
central "inner sun" due to that sun's gravity. There is no force of gravity,
or any other force pointing outwards inside this hollow shell. An "inner sun"
would cause anything on the inner surface of the shell to fall into it.

  I would like to see their attempt to explain this away with their
pseudophysics. It would be amusing. I just can't find any such explanation.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 11/9/2011 1:21 PM, Warp wrote:
>    I would like to see their attempt to explain this away with their
> pseudophysics. It would be amusing. I just can't find any such explanation.

The closest thing I've seen is the argument that a hollow earth is 
possible because our theories of gravity are wrong.  You're correct that 
it's amusing though, here's an example:

http://hollowplanet.blogspot.com/2010/08/gravity-modern-enigma.html

Clearly there's a multitude of obvious issues with what his argument 
seems to be here.  That whole blog is probably worth taking a look at if 
you're interested in people who believe this theory BTW.  A reasonable 
fraction of the posts at least make an attempt to sound scientific, so 
they're more fun to read IMHO.

Also, check out this quote from another site:

"
I agree with you that hollow planets theory of gravity does not agree 
with this.

Any people on the interior of the earth, according to orthodox gravity 
theory, would be WEIGHTLESS and floating around. If our theories about 
the hollow earth, however, are true, that the interior earth inhabitants 
have their feet firmly planted on the inner surface, this means, that 
orthodox gravity theory must be revised. One or the other must be wrong. 
If we prove planets are hollow, gravity theory will HAVE to be revised. 
Perhaps this would lead to gravity control, and gravity
control will lead to free energy for all. Maybe here is another reason 
the hollow earth is still World Top Secret!
"


Another related theory you might enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJfBSc6e7QQ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_Earth

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On 09/11/2011 09:21 PM, Warp wrote:

>    That's not the only crazy hypothesis that some people seriously believe.
> Another one is the hollow Earth hypothesis. There really are people out
> there who seriously and honestly believe this (or at the very least consider
> it plausible). And not only that the Earth is hollow, but that there's an
> "inner sun" and an advanced civilization inside the Earth.

You've got to admit, if there really *was* an unknown inner-world hidden 
right beneath our feet, that would be extremely cool. Who wouldn't want 
to believe that? Oh, yeah, I forgot - anyone who wants to be taken 
seriously ever again. :-P

>    There many several-hours-long pseudodocumentaries about this subject
> (some even shown on TV channels such as the History Channel; go figure),

Fantasy makes good TV. It's entertaining if not exactly factual.

> but for the life of me I cannot find even one single source that would
> even *attempt* to explain the physics of this

That's not greatly surprising, given the multiple simultaneous ways in 
which this is completely impossible.

>    In fact, most of these pseudodocumentaries are extremely vague about
> the details. They often don't even mention *where* exactly this supposed
> advanced civilization resides. On the inner surface of the hollow crust?
> Somewhere else? Where? They all only talk about a civilization living inside
> the Earth without going into more detail. Just inside there, somewhere,
> somehow.

That's probably because if you actually engage your brain and THINK 
about that for a moment... you start realising how utterly absurd it is, 
and immediately stop believing such nonsense.

>    The thing is, even if the shell of the hollow Earth would be strong enough
> to not to collapse under its own gravity (which btw is physically impossible,
> as no material is even nearly that strong, taking into account the mass of
> the Earth), anything on the inner surface of this shell would fall into the
> central "inner sun" due to that sun's gravity. There is no force of gravity,
> or any other force pointing outwards inside this hollow shell. An "inner sun"
> would cause anything on the inner surface of the shell to fall into it.

1. If the Earth is hollow, wouldn't that *significantly* alter its mass?

2. A hollow Earth-sized structure with a vacuum inside would surely 
collapse pretty quickly, no matter what you made it of, but if it was 
filled with an atmosphere of some kind, at absurd pressure, it might 
work. (Isn't that what a bubble is, after all?)

3. It's not quite correct to say that "no force" would hold people's 
feet onto the anti-ground. There is one: centrifugal force due to the 
Earth's rotation. Sure, it's a force several orders of magnitude too 
small to make the slightest shred of difference, but it's real.

4. A *star* inside Earth? Um... do these people know how big stars 
actually are? If you hollowed out the Sun, you could fit one million 
copies of the Earth inside it - and the Sun isn't a particularly large star!

(The Sun also has 333,000 times Earth's mass, and at its surface it has 
28 times as much gravity as at Earth's surface...)

Still, I guess when you look up at the Sun [DO NOT EVER DO THIS!], it 
looks quite small... :-P

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Kevin Wampler <wam### [at] uwashingtonedu> wrote:
> The closest thing I've seen is the argument that a hollow earth is 
> possible because our theories of gravity are wrong.  You're correct that 
> it's amusing though, here's an example:

> http://hollowplanet.blogspot.com/2010/08/gravity-modern-enigma.html

  I just love the cherry-picking that these people do.

  The pioneer anomaly is indeed existent (as well as the flyby anomaly,
which might or might not be related, and which the blogger missed even
though it would have been a wonderful addition to the list) and physicists
fully acknowledge its existence.

  The problem is that mentioning only it is cherry picking. It ignores the
hundreds and thousands of other experiments which can be and have been used
to corroborate GR, and they do give accurate results to as much precision
as we can measure, exactly how GR predicts.

  So if we have something like a thousands different experiments that
confirm GR to the highest degree of measurable accuracy, and two which
deviate a bit from it, which option is more probable, that GR is wrong,
or that there's something else affecting those two particular cases?

  It's also making a category error. While pioneer and flyby anomalies
are significant (in the statistical sense, iow. they cannot be attributed
solely to measurement errors), they are minuscule. Even if (and that's a
big if) they mean that GR has to be fine-tuned, the change wouldn't be
large. On the other hand, if the hollow Earth hypothesis is correct, it
would require a completely humongous change in not only the theory of
gravity, but to most other physics as well.

  It's a bit like saying that "the measurement of the distance between the
Earth and the Moon using a laser has an error of 1 meter; that means that
we could just as well estimate the diamater of the Earth to be 1 kilometer".

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> 1. If the Earth is hollow, wouldn't that *significantly* alter its mass?

  The only claim that I have ever seen to explain that is that the "inner
sun" accounts for the missing mass.

> 2. A hollow Earth-sized structure with a vacuum inside would surely 
> collapse pretty quickly, no matter what you made it of, but if it was 
> filled with an atmosphere of some kind, at absurd pressure, it might 
> work. (Isn't that what a bubble is, after all?)

  No amount of atmosphere would be able to hold the shell under Earth's
gravity. It would just crumble and collapse. The only reason why the
Earth does not collapse is because it's fully made of rock and metal.
(No double entendre intended.)

> 3. It's not quite correct to say that "no force" would hold people's 
> feet onto the anti-ground. There is one: centrifugal force due to the 
> Earth's rotation. Sure, it's a force several orders of magnitude too 
> small to make the slightest shred of difference, but it's real.

  Even at the equator it's over 300 times weaker than g. That means that
if someone were to make a jump at the equator that would normally boost
him 1 meter into the air, would boost him over 300 meters into the air.

  Anyways, the majority of these hollow Earth theories claim that there's
an "inner sun" at the center of the Earth (which explains how the interior
surface of the Earth is habitable). The gravity of that sun would be strong
enough to pull anything on the inner surface of the Earth, which would then
fall into this 'sun'.

> 4. A *star* inside Earth? Um... do these people know how big stars 
> actually are? If you hollowed out the Sun, you could fit one million 
> copies of the Earth inside it - and the Sun isn't a particularly large star!

  A body of eg. the size of the inner core of the Earth could indeed not
have enough mass to cause a fusion reaction, and hence it would not be a
star at all. It would be just a small moon, a lifeless rock. (It could not
be made of gas because it would be too small to maintain its shape.)

  The only "star" that small would be a neutron star, which in turn would
be *so* massive that the Earth would collapse into it in a microsecond.
(Not to talk that a neutron star does not have a fusion reaction going on
either. Also the radiation that a neutron star emits would kill all life
on earth in another microsecond.)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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> Still, I guess when you look up at the Sun [DO NOT EVER DO THIS!], it
> looks quite small... :-P

At least one guy realy beleive, or beleived, that an elephan was bigger 
than the moon, and the Sun... After all, the elephan can hide the moon 
or the Sun.

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On 10/11/2011 09:38 PM, Warp wrote:
> Invisible<voi### [at] devnull>  wrote:
>> 1. If the Earth is hollow, wouldn't that *significantly* alter its mass?
>
>    The only claim that I have ever seen to explain that is that the "inner
> sun" accounts for the missing mass.

I meant more that a hollow Earth couldn't withstand the forces that our 
Earth withstands, but if Earth was hollow the forces would be smaller.

>> 2. A hollow Earth-sized structure with a vacuum inside would surely
>> collapse pretty quickly, no matter what you made it of, but if it was
>> filled with an atmosphere of some kind, at absurd pressure, it might
>> work. (Isn't that what a bubble is, after all?)
>
>    No amount of atmosphere would be able to hold the shell under Earth's
> gravity. It would just crumble and collapse. The only reason why the
> Earth does not collapse is because it's fully made of rock and metal.
> (No double entendre intended.)

I'm sure if you had the right gas at insane enough pressure it could 
work. Whether anything could *live* in that is another matter entirely...

>> 3. It's not quite correct to say that "no force" would hold people's
>> feet onto the anti-ground. There is one: centrifugal force due to the
>> Earth's rotation. Sure, it's a force several orders of magnitude too
>> small to make the slightest shred of difference, but it's real.
>
>    Even at the equator it's over 300 times weaker than g.

Quite.

(And I note that the Earth isn't perfectly spherical, so not only is 
centrifugal force strongest at the equator, but gravity is weakest, 
since you're slightly further away from the center of Earth.)

>    Anyways, the majority of these hollow Earth theories claim that there's
> an "inner sun" at the center of the Earth (which explains how the interior
> surface of the Earth is habitable). The gravity of that sun would be strong
> enough to pull anything on the inner surface of the Earth, which would then
> fall into this 'sun'.

Uh, yeah, a "star" is where a ball of gas is so massive that it 
collapses under its own gravity. Pro-tip: There's a reason you don't 
usually find objects near to a star. They tend to fall into it.

>> 4. A *star* inside Earth? Um... do these people know how big stars
>> actually are? If you hollowed out the Sun, you could fit one million
>> copies of the Earth inside it - and the Sun isn't a particularly large star!
>
>    A body of eg. the size of the inner core of the Earth could indeed not
> have enough mass to cause a fusion reaction, and hence it would not be a
> star at all. It would be just a small moon, a lifeless rock. (It could not
> be made of gas because it would be too small to maintain its shape.)
>
>    The only "star" that small would be a neutron star, which in turn would
> be *so* massive that the Earth would collapse into it in a microsecond.
> (Not to talk that a neutron star does not have a fusion reaction going on
> either. Also the radiation that a neutron star emits would kill all life
> on earth in another microsecond.)

I'm being frustrated in my attempts to find any data for star sizes. But 
it seems that most typical types of star are *vastly* bigger than our 
tiny little planet. A neutron star is indeed the only kind I can find 
reference to which is anywhere near small enough to fit inside Earth.

There's a couple of problems with that. The first problem is the insane 
amount of gravity it generates. Any plausible configuration of matter 
having a gravitational field strong enough to crush it to the point 
where fusion, or even significant heating occurs, is going to have a 
similar problem.

Then there's the huge amount of X-ray radiation that neutron stars 
apparently produce.

Then of course, neutron stars are apparently the *final* phase of the 
development of a star, which asks the question of how the **** a star 
ends up being in the center of a planet in the first place. That is an 
entire *other* debate.

Even if we assume that by some freakishly unlikely miracle the Earth has 
a star inside it, there's another problem. The Sun emits about 4 * 10^26 
W of radiation, in all directions. Of that vast amount of energy, a 
vanishingly tiny fraction of it illuminates Earth.

(According to Wolfram Alpha, the Earth orbits the Sun at roughly 93 
million miles. That gives us a sphere with a surface area of roughly 3 * 
10^23 square miles to illuminate. The Earth has a radius of about 4,000 
miles, and so covers an area of this sphere about 50 million square 
miles. 3 * 10^23 / 50 million = 1.6 * 10^-19. So the Earth receives 
roughly 10^-19 of the Sun's radiation.)

Now consider a star enclosed by a planet. That planet would receive not 
10^-19 of the star's radiation, but 10^0 of it - i.e., 100%. Said 
interior might get... a tad warm.

(Think about it. How tiny is the flame in an oven? And yet, ovens get 
pretty damned hot!)

It's almost fun to try to make the math work, just to see how many 
different ways that this idea of a hollow planet is absurdly implausible...

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On 11/11/2011 8:47 PM, Invisible wrote:

>
> It's almost fun to try to make the math work, just to see how many
> different ways that this idea of a hollow planet is absurdly implausible...

Not that I support the "Hollow Earth" folk but I'd simply point out for 
the purpose of discussion that all of your arguments are based on 
natural planet and star formation and behaviour.

An alien race with sufficiently advanced technology could in theory at 
least construct and maintain any domicile that they wish and could do so 
for whatever reason they want.  Think force fields to form the hollow 
structure, fusion power for a micro star, gravity manipulation etc. 
Actually, scratch the gravity.  Imagine the living space of not just the 
surface but the entire volume.

Now they'd also have to produce things like the seismic propagation 
patterns that give evidence of the mantle / liquid outer core / solid 
inner core, plate tectonics, volcanism, mineral origin, isotope ratios, 
mass concentrations etc.  Geologists have a pretty clear - but not 
perfect - picture of the supposedly real structure of the Earth going 
down pretty much to the core.  It would be massively difficult to fake 
all of the phenomena realistically.  To do so in order to confuse the 
primitives living on the outer skin seems pretty extravagant and down 
right malicious.  Still who can say what their motives are?

So, mythical, super powerful beings (or being!) living in a hidden place 
who act for their own reasons and take care to produce evidence that 
would lead us not to believe in them / it.  All of this proposed by a 
few nutters who have no understanding of technology, no evidence in 
their favour and no capacity to alter their beliefs based on substantial 
evidence to the contrary.

Where have I heard that before?

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Am 11.11.2011 13:16, schrieb Paul Fuller:

> So, mythical, super powerful beings (or being!) living in a hidden place
> who act for their own reasons and take care to produce evidence that
> would lead us not to believe in them / it.

But isn't that where things fall into place? It's clear as daylight: 
That place is Hell itself! No doubt Satan is powerful enough to pull the 
stunt of creating and maintaining it, and of course he wouldn't want 
anyone to believe in Hell, would he?

That's also where the X-rays from that neutron star fit in, as well as 
the inner earth receiving 100% of the inner sun's output. And that 
super-dense gas to stabilize the earth's crust. Hell, yeah!

But of course none of you sheepish fools will believe this, because 
you're being betrayed by Satan's lies.

:-)

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On 11/11/2011 12:58 PM, clipka wrote:

> But isn't that where things fall into place? It's clear as daylight:
> That place is Hell itself! No doubt Satan is powerful enough to pull the
> stunt of creating and maintaining it, and of course he wouldn't want
> anyone to believe in Hell, would he?
>
> That's also where the X-rays from that neutron star fit in, as well as
> the inner earth receiving 100% of the inner sun's output. And that
> super-dense gas to stabilize the earth's crust. Hell, yeah!
>
> But of course none of you sheepish fools will believe this, because
> you're being betrayed by Satan's lies.
>
> :-)

Best post of the week.

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