andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> "Most people in Finland are at least nominally members of a Christian 
> church,..."

  Membership of the state church says absolutely nothing. The vast majority
of the members of the church are atheists.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Stephen <mcavoys_at@aoldotcom> wrote:
> Point of Order, Mr Chairman!
> England has a state church, the Church of England. The Church of 
> Scotland, The Kirk, rejected that status and is independent of the crown 
> and parliament. The Church in Wales is not an established church. And 
> for completeness Northern Island which is not part of Britain does not 
> have a state church.

  England, Britain, United Kingdom... It's all so confusing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 16/10/2011 5:41 PM, Warp wrote:
>    England, Britain, United Kingdom... It's all so confusing...
>

No! (British Isles), United Kingdom, Great Britain, Britain, England, 
Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (by population).
I understand that it is confusing but you can think of it this way.
There are the four countries.
Britain is the land that the Romans ruled. It includes England, Wales 
and the southern part of Scotland. It was known as Britannia in those days.
Great Britain came into being with the Acts of Union 1707 when Scotland 
joined with England and Wales in having the same parliament. (England 
and Wales, or at least parts of Wales have had the same laws since the 
11th century and the whole of Wales since the 16th century)
There used to be a United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland but that 
went the way of all grass when the Irish took their ball home.
Got it?


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10

He got it mostly right.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbbc/clips/p00g1d5l

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 10/16/2011 6:30 AM, Warp wrote:
> Patrick Elliott<sel### [at] npgcablecom>  wrote:
>> This is simple. The logic is that a) they are going to hell, just look
>> at how much "worse" their economies are, b) just look at all these (
>> entirely made up) examples of bad laws, and evil things happening in
>> them, c) denial that anything good is happening in those places, and d)
>> an even **bigger** total, and complete, denial that Christians are not
>> the majority religion in the world, or that any place with a lot of
>> churches can "possibly" be non-religious.
>
>    The irony is that most European countries, including the nordic ones,
> are technically speaking theocracies. That's because their governments
> recognize and endorse an official state church which gets significant
> privileges over all other denominations and religions. Their constitutions
> do not forbid the governments from endorsing a particular religion (because
> they do).
>
>    In contrast, the US is technically speaking a secular government because
> its constitution forbids the government from endorsing a particular
> religion.
>
>    Yet something like 85% of people in the nordic countries are secular
> (and the governments are largely secular), while something like 95% of
> people in the US is Christian.
>
>    Life is stranger than fiction.
>
There are some people here that theorize that this is precisely 
"because" of the separation thing. Basically, if one group of complete 
nuts run things, and into the ground enough, then it tend to inoculate 
everyone else against them. If you limit that power, such that the 
problems they create are minor, petty, or only effect small numbers of 
people, the default assumption for most is that **their** crazy assed 
belief system wouldn't do the same thing, if *it* was the one trying to 
pass minor, petty, laws, which only effect a relatively small number of 
*other* people.

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On 10/16/2011 9:06 AM, andrel wrote:
>> andrel<byt### [at] gmailcom>  wrote:
>>> In the Netherlands we have sort of a state religion, in the sense that
>>> our Queen is from a particular church. But all religions that were
>>> present in the beginning of the 20th centuries all are treated the same.
>>> Yes they have privileges, but giving a church tax breaks does not make
>>> the country a theocracy.
>>
>>    I don't know how it is in Netherlands, but in Finland there's an
>> official
>> state church (from the Lutheran denomination) that has official special
>> privileges, and special legislature governing it. No other
>> denomination nor
>> religion has the same status.
>
> But is the church consulted during the law making process? If not it is
> still not a theocracy. Theocracy means that God and its representatives
> are *ruling*.
Actually, this isn't the right question. The correct question is, "Did, 
at one time, the church have primary control over how laws where 
passed." The answer is yes, and that is why no one lets them bloody to 
it any more. In the US, the answer is, "No, they fought with each other 
over what stupid thing they wanted to have passed, so never got much of 
any where. The result being that every damn one of them, and their 
followers, are *still* convinced that letting one of them dictate the 
law would be a really neato idea."

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On 16-10-2011 18:36, Warp wrote:
> andrel<byt### [at] gmailcom>  wrote:
>> "Most people in Finland are at least nominally members of a Christian
>> church,..."
>
>    Membership of the state church says absolutely nothing. The vast majority
> of the members of the church are atheists.

I was afraid you would say that. Because you are now comparing only 
regular church going Europeans with all Christians in the US.


-- 
Apparently you can afford your own dictator for less than 10 cents per 
citizen per day.

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On 10/15/2011 18:46, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> that he couldn't possibly be born in the US,

The thing that cracks me up about all that is that the person he was running 
against *actually* wasn't born in the USA.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 10/16/2011 6:30, Warp wrote:
> while something like 95% of people in the US is Christian.

I think *that* number is rather high, given that some 15% are atheists and 
some 5% are Jewish, Muslim, etc. (And Mormons get counted as Christians.)

Actually, there ya go:

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

Pew Forums have actually been around a long time and are fairly respected as 
a source of statistics, too.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 10/16/2011 8:36, Warp wrote:
> (Ok, Australia isn't exactly "western", but
> I'm using the colloquial meaning of the word here.)

I think they're considered "western" because they were colonized by England 
and didn't have their own flag first.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 10/16/2011 9:06, andrel wrote:
> 76% Christian in the states according to W.

Plus, it's 76% who *say* they're christian. Then ask how many of them have 
been to church in the last 5 years...  :-)


-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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