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On 10/15/2011 9:54 AM, Stephen wrote:
> On 15/10/2011 5:40 PM, Darren New wrote:
>> Because you're thinking it's part of a rational, logical argument,
>> rather than the financial equivalent of screaming "you're not
>> patriotic!!1!"
>>
>
> That reminds me. I was travelling home from the States at the beginning
> of July. One of our security guards said, “At least you will get to
> spend the holiday at home.” I had to remind him that we don’t actually
> celebrate America’s Independence Day in Britain,
>
>
>>
>> Again, people who fall for this are the same people who aren't too
>> bright. They also think there's a car engine that runs on water that the
>> oil companies are buying the patents to and hiding, not even realizing
>> that if it's patented it's already public knowledge.
>
> There is/was a car engine that runs on water. The principle was that
> water was sprayed into the cylinder just after the spark to increase the
> efficiency of the combustion force. Why it was not developed I can’t
> say. (Where is Scott when you need him?)
>
No no no. They bought off the guy that made it, then bribed the patent
office, with the help of aliens, and the FDA, under the control of the
Pentagon, to alter to patent, or substitute a different one, so no one
could *ever* create one. Honest, my shoe told me so. Not my left one
though, that one always lies!
lol
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Patrick Elliott <sel### [at] npgcable com> wrote:
> This is simple. The logic is that a) they are going to hell, just look
> at how much "worse" their economies are, b) just look at all these (
> entirely made up) examples of bad laws, and evil things happening in
> them, c) denial that anything good is happening in those places, and d)
> an even **bigger** total, and complete, denial that Christians are not
> the majority religion in the world, or that any place with a lot of
> churches can "possibly" be non-religious.
The irony is that most European countries, including the nordic ones,
are technically speaking theocracies. That's because their governments
recognize and endorse an official state church which gets significant
privileges over all other denominations and religions. Their constitutions
do not forbid the governments from endorsing a particular religion (because
they do).
In contrast, the US is technically speaking a secular government because
its constitution forbids the government from endorsing a particular
religion.
Yet something like 85% of people in the nordic countries are secular
(and the governments are largely secular), while something like 95% of
people in the US is Christian.
Life is stranger than fiction.
--
- Warp
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On 16-10-2011 15:30, Warp wrote:
> Patrick Elliott<sel### [at] npgcablecom> wrote:
>> This is simple. The logic is that a) they are going to hell, just look
>> at how much "worse" their economies are, b) just look at all these (
>> entirely made up) examples of bad laws, and evil things happening in
>> them, c) denial that anything good is happening in those places, and d)
>> an even **bigger** total, and complete, denial that Christians are not
>> the majority religion in the world, or that any place with a lot of
>> churches can "possibly" be non-religious.
>
> The irony is that most European countries, including the nordic ones,
> are technically speaking theocracies.
To be a theocracy the church(es) should also control legislation and
provide or choose the politicians. The vatican is in Europe the only
country where that is the case. You could make a case for England, but I
don't think you can win that argument.
> That's because their governments
> recognize and endorse an official state church which gets significant
> privileges over all other denominations and religions. Their constitutions
> do not forbid the governments from endorsing a particular religion (because
> they do).
In the Netherlands we have sort of a state religion, in the sense that
our Queen is from a particular church. But all religions that were
present in the beginning of the 20th centuries all are treated the same.
Yes they have privileges, but giving a church tax breaks does not make
the country a theocracy. Because of the connection between the RC church
and the Vatican (or for some other reason, IANAH), the RC church was
allowed to have it's own internal legislation that was respected by the
Dutch authorities. That is of course a bit less acceptable these days
because the RC church appears to be ethically rotten to the bone. I am
not aware that the protestant churches had the same privileges even
though our Queen is a protestant. Anyway the influence of the church is
ATM almost completely limited to within the walls of the church.
> In contrast, the US is technically speaking a secular government because
> its constitution forbids the government from endorsing a particular
> religion.
>
> Yet something like 85% of people in the nordic countries are secular
> (and the governments are largely secular), while something like 95% of
> people in the US is Christian.
can you give a reference for those numbers?
> Life is stranger than fiction.
but some life is more equal than others
--
Apparently you can afford your own dictator for less than 10 cents per
citizen per day.
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andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> In the Netherlands we have sort of a state religion, in the sense that
> our Queen is from a particular church. But all religions that were
> present in the beginning of the 20th centuries all are treated the same.
> Yes they have privileges, but giving a church tax breaks does not make
> the country a theocracy.
I don't know how it is in Netherlands, but in Finland there's an official
state church (from the Lutheran denomination) that has official special
privileges, and special legislature governing it. No other denomination nor
religion has the same status.
It's the same in Sweden. Britain naturally also has an official state
church (which has even larger power, as they coronate the country's
king/queen, among other things). I don't know about other European
countries, but AFAIK it's pretty common in most of them.
In fact, the US is the only western country I know that has no official
state church. I don't know what the technically official status of countries
like Canada and Australia is. (Ok, Australia isn't exactly "western", but
I'm using the colloquial meaning of the word here.)
> > Yet something like 85% of people in the nordic countries are secular
> > (and the governments are largely secular), while something like 95% of
> > people in the US is Christian.
> can you give a reference for those numbers?
Nope, just repeating what I have heard from sources I consider decently
reliable. The exact numbers are probably slightly different from those,
but are probably not very far from them.
--
- Warp
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On 16-10-2011 17:36, Warp wrote:
> andrel<byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>> In the Netherlands we have sort of a state religion, in the sense that
>> our Queen is from a particular church. But all religions that were
>> present in the beginning of the 20th centuries all are treated the same.
>> Yes they have privileges, but giving a church tax breaks does not make
>> the country a theocracy.
>
> I don't know how it is in Netherlands, but in Finland there's an official
> state church (from the Lutheran denomination) that has official special
> privileges, and special legislature governing it. No other denomination nor
> religion has the same status.
But is the church consulted during the law making process? If not it is
still not a theocracy. Theocracy means that God and its representatives
are *ruling*.
> It's the same in Sweden. Britain naturally also has an official state
> church (which has even larger power, as they coronate the country's
> king/queen, among other things). I don't know about other European
> countries, but AFAIK it's pretty common in most of them.
>
> In fact, the US is the only western country I know that has no official
> state church. I don't know what the technically official status of countries
> like Canada and Australia is. (Ok, Australia isn't exactly "western", but
> I'm using the colloquial meaning of the word here.)
>
>>> Yet something like 85% of people in the nordic countries are secular
>>> (and the governments are largely secular), while something like 95% of
>>> people in the US is Christian.
>
>> can you give a reference for those numbers?
>
> Nope, just repeating what I have heard from sources I consider decently
> reliable. The exact numbers are probably slightly different from those,
> but are probably not very far from them.
WIYF
61% secular for the Netherlands and according to W that is one of the
highest values in Europe. For Finland I can not find a single value but
the first line in an article about religion in Finland starts with:
"Most people in Finland are at least nominally members of a Christian
church,..."
76% Christian in the states according to W. I'll leave it to you to
judge if your numbers are "probably not very far from them"
--
Apparently you can afford your own dictator for less than 10 cents per
citizen per day.
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On 16/10/2011 4:36 PM, Warp wrote:
> Britain naturally also has an official state
> church (which has even larger power, as they coronate the country's
> king/queen, among other things).
Point of Order, Mr Chairman!
England has a state church, the Church of England. The Church of
Scotland, The Kirk, rejected that status and is independent of the crown
and parliament. The Church in Wales is not an established church. And
for completeness Northern Island which is not part of Britain does not
have a state church.
--
Regards
Stephen
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andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> "Most people in Finland are at least nominally members of a Christian
> church,..."
Membership of the state church says absolutely nothing. The vast majority
of the members of the church are atheists.
--
- Warp
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Stephen <mcavoys_at@aoldotcom> wrote:
> Point of Order, Mr Chairman!
> England has a state church, the Church of England. The Church of
> Scotland, The Kirk, rejected that status and is independent of the crown
> and parliament. The Church in Wales is not an established church. And
> for completeness Northern Island which is not part of Britain does not
> have a state church.
England, Britain, United Kingdom... It's all so confusing...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10
--
- Warp
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On 16/10/2011 5:41 PM, Warp wrote:
> England, Britain, United Kingdom... It's all so confusing...
>
No! (British Isles), United Kingdom, Great Britain, Britain, England,
Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (by population).
I understand that it is confusing but you can think of it this way.
There are the four countries.
Britain is the land that the Romans ruled. It includes England, Wales
and the southern part of Scotland. It was known as Britannia in those days.
Great Britain came into being with the Acts of Union 1707 when Scotland
joined with England and Wales in having the same parliament. (England
and Wales, or at least parts of Wales have had the same laws since the
11th century and the whole of Wales since the 16th century)
There used to be a United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland but that
went the way of all grass when the Irish took their ball home.
Got it?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10
He got it mostly right.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbbc/clips/p00g1d5l
--
Regards
Stephen
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On 10/16/2011 6:30 AM, Warp wrote:
> Patrick Elliott<sel### [at] npgcablecom> wrote:
>> This is simple. The logic is that a) they are going to hell, just look
>> at how much "worse" their economies are, b) just look at all these (
>> entirely made up) examples of bad laws, and evil things happening in
>> them, c) denial that anything good is happening in those places, and d)
>> an even **bigger** total, and complete, denial that Christians are not
>> the majority religion in the world, or that any place with a lot of
>> churches can "possibly" be non-religious.
>
> The irony is that most European countries, including the nordic ones,
> are technically speaking theocracies. That's because their governments
> recognize and endorse an official state church which gets significant
> privileges over all other denominations and religions. Their constitutions
> do not forbid the governments from endorsing a particular religion (because
> they do).
>
> In contrast, the US is technically speaking a secular government because
> its constitution forbids the government from endorsing a particular
> religion.
>
> Yet something like 85% of people in the nordic countries are secular
> (and the governments are largely secular), while something like 95% of
> people in the US is Christian.
>
> Life is stranger than fiction.
>
There are some people here that theorize that this is precisely
"because" of the separation thing. Basically, if one group of complete
nuts run things, and into the ground enough, then it tend to inoculate
everyone else against them. If you limit that power, such that the
problems they create are minor, petty, or only effect small numbers of
people, the default assumption for most is that **their** crazy assed
belief system wouldn't do the same thing, if *it* was the one trying to
pass minor, petty, laws, which only effect a relatively small number of
*other* people.
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