>> It just urks me that I'm part of a team of so-called computer experts,
>> and everybody's answer to everything is "did you try rebooting it?" Not
>> "hey, let me engage my brain for 15 seconds and see if I can come up
>> with a real answer", just "did you try rebooting it?"
>
> That's a Windows answer to most problems, sadly.  That's not necessarily
> a function of your teammates or their nationality, it's the way Microsoft
> has trained people to "troubleshoot".

*sigh* Yeah, there is that...

>> And yes, being the only person in the team who works geographically
>> isolated really puts the "me" in "team".
>
> Of course I agree with that.  It can be done, but it takes effort on
> everyone's part, and it seems that your teammates don't think of you as
> part of the team or try to include you.

To be fair, I don't think they try to exclude me on purpose. It's just 
that they all work in the same room, and I don't.

> Finding another job would probably be a good way to do this, but you seem
> to lack the flexibility to make a change - you're rooted to a place and
> are unwilling to relocate, even if the money is far, far better.

Is it really worth abandoning everything I've ever cared about just to 
have more coins in my pocket?

That's not a rhetorical question. The answer I suppose depends on your 
priorities. If you value happiness more than money, then I guess that 
fixes the answer...

>> Of course, that's an exaggeration. But those guys do seem reluctant to
>> throw any real thought power at the problem when you can just replace
>> stuff and see if that fixes it. Maybe they're just busier than me...
>> seems to be a cultural thing though.
>
> No, it's not particularly cultural.  Just the type of people they've
> hired in your company's US organisation.

Well, I suppose there is something to be said for just replacing the 
entire car... It's potentially a lot quicker than a lot of complex 
troubleshooting. But to me, it just seems like the "wrong" answer.

>>> So it sounds to me like you're either stuck back in 1990, or you're
>>> still using an 8088 to compile with.
>>
>> No, this was on the same PC I'm using right now - AMD Athlon64 X2 4200+
>> 2.2 GHz with 3 GB RAM.
>
> What else was the system doing?

It was getting late at night. I told Gentoo to "emerge mozilla", and 
went to bed. By the morning, it has nerly finished compiling.

Note that at this point, I didn't even have an X server running. No 
services running. Nothing. I literally had a terminal screen running 
Bash and the build. It took many, many hours to finish. It actually 
quite surprises me that a mere web browser takes longer to compile than 
something complicated like X11. But there we are...

> I've got a similar system, and I'm sure
> it would compile FF faster than that if nothing else was using the
> system.

Hmm, OK. Apparently I imagined it then. o_O

>>> That's kinda the point of "Free Software"
>>
>> Sure. That's the general idea of a free license. But some licenses are
>> freer than others. And different distros have different ideas about
>> that. (See, again, Debian classifying POV-Ray as non-free.)
>
> But not when it comes to the GPL.  The kernel and many of the utilities
> and programs that make up a distribution also are.  I can't arbitrarily
> decide that you can't have access to it because I want to charge you for
> my particular collection.

Well, that's true enough. But without looking at the license for every 
single component in the OpenSUSE system, I don't know if there's some 
customer SUSE-only thing in it which has a less permissive license or 
something. So I was just asking.

>> Sure, but presumably they only *support* your products if you pay for an
>> expensive support package?
>
> It depends on the product.  You might look into it (there's no reason for
> me to do so for you, you can navigate the HP site as well as I can).

OK, well let me put it this way: I would be /surprised/ if HP are 
interested in helping anybody not paying for the priviledge.

>> The fact that I'm running from the standard ISO image of the live CD
>> tells you it doesn't have any VM tools installed. (Unless there are any
>> present on the disk itself.) I'll admit I forgot to include the version
>> numbers.
>
> "Standard ISO image of the live CD" doesn't tell me which one (there are
> at least two for openSUSE).

And I said somewhere earlier that I'd tried both the GNOME and KDE live CDs.

> I'd have to look, but the hardware detection
> may well see that it's in a VM and run the GPL'ed VMware tools (I'd have
> to look).

Well, yes at any rate, this is a question for the correct forum. 
Presumably there will be people there who don't even need to look this up.

>>> Computers don't tend to do things for "random" reasons.
>>
>> This is why it disturbs me so when a computer does something for no
>> apparent reason. Like booting the same VM multiple times, when it can
>> have no record of what happened before, and yet seeing a different
>> result each time...
>
> That can mean there's a hardware issue (e.g, bad memory), or in the
> program that's running in the VM there's a memory leak or some other
> oddity.

I would suspect it's a VMware glitch. Every other VM works just fine, so...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

On 23/10/2011 09:51 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 21:45:32 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>
>>>>>>> Geez, dude. Third hit on google
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, because the Internet is always accessible. Oh, wait...
>>>>>
>>>>> If you're in charge of administrating networks, then the answer ought
>>>>> to be "yes, yes it is."
>>>>
>>>> I was trying to set this up on my home PC. :-P
>>>
>>> Libraries.  Smart phones.  Dual-boot configurations.
>>>
>>> We've been over this before. ;)
>>
>> I guess I just reject the idea that you should ever need to use Google
>> to figure out how software works. It should be in the manual. :-P
>
> It is in the manual.  The manual in Linux is called the man pages (or the
> info pages). :P

No, it's on stackoverflow. :-P

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 21:59:04 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

> On 23/10/2011 09:51 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 21:45:32 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> Geez, dude. Third hit on google
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, because the Internet is always accessible. Oh, wait...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you're in charge of administrating networks, then the answer
>>>>>> ought to be "yes, yes it is."
>>>>>
>>>>> I was trying to set this up on my home PC. :-P
>>>>
>>>> Libraries.  Smart phones.  Dual-boot configurations.
>>>>
>>>> We've been over this before. ;)
>>>
>>> I guess I just reject the idea that you should ever need to use Google
>>> to figure out how software works. It should be in the manual. :-P
>>
>> It is in the manual.  The manual in Linux is called the man pages (or
>> the info pages). :P
> 
> No, it's on stackoverflow. :-P

I think I see why you have problems with the "Linux community" - you're 
not asking them if you're going to stackoverflow. :P

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 21:57:53 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>>> And yes, being the only person in the team who works geographically
>>> isolated really puts the "me" in "team".
>>
>> Of course I agree with that.  It can be done, but it takes effort on
>> everyone's part, and it seems that your teammates don't think of you as
>> part of the team or try to include you.
> 
> To be fair, I don't think they try to exclude me on purpose. It's just
> that they all work in the same room, and I don't.

Right - when you have one remote member of a team, it does require a 
conscious effort to include them.

>> Finding another job would probably be a good way to do this, but you
>> seem to lack the flexibility to make a change - you're rooted to a
>> place and are unwilling to relocate, even if the money is far, far
>> better.
> 
> Is it really worth abandoning everything I've ever cared about just to
> have more coins in my pocket?
> 
> That's not a rhetorical question. The answer I suppose depends on your
> priorities. If you value happiness more than money, then I guess that
> fixes the answer...

Except that you don't seem particularly happy, either.  Maybe that's just 
what comes across here, but you often sound quite miserable and 
depressed.  You worry about people in your own town beating you up, you 
hate your job, your mom drives you crazy....About the only thing you've 
said you like is the way Milton Keynes is organised.  That seems like a 
very minor reason (to me, but hey, it may be very significant to you) to 
stay someplace you hate around people you can't stand to be with who 
don't respect you.

Leaving home, though, isn't "abandonment of everything you've ever cared 
about", though - I left my parents to go to college and to pursue a 
career.  I still am a major part of my mom's life (my dad having passed 
away a few years ago).

>>> Of course, that's an exaggeration. But those guys do seem reluctant to
>>> throw any real thought power at the problem when you can just replace
>>> stuff and see if that fixes it. Maybe they're just busier than me...
>>> seems to be a cultural thing though.
>>
>> No, it's not particularly cultural.  Just the type of people they've
>> hired in your company's US organisation.
> 
> Well, I suppose there is something to be said for just replacing the
> entire car... It's potentially a lot quicker than a lot of complex
> troubleshooting. But to me, it just seems like the "wrong" answer.

It also tends to be a lot more expensive, and to most businesses, saving 
money is a key part of survival.  And there's no guarantee that the new 
car you buy won't have the same problem, or a different - and more 
difficult - problem.

>>>> So it sounds to me like you're either stuck back in 1990, or you're
>>>> still using an 8088 to compile with.
>>>
>>> No, this was on the same PC I'm using right now - AMD Athlon64 X2
>>> 4200+ 2.2 GHz with 3 GB RAM.
>>
>> What else was the system doing?
> 
> It was getting late at night. I told Gentoo to "emerge mozilla", and
> went to bed. By the morning, it has nerly finished compiling.
> 
> Note that at this point, I didn't even have an X server running. No
> services running. Nothing. I literally had a terminal screen running
> Bash and the build. It took many, many hours to finish. It actually
> quite surprises me that a mere web browser takes longer to compile than
> something complicated like X11. But there we are...

So with gentoo, an emerge actually downloads the code needed to build, 
and it builds all the dependencies.  So you weren't just building 
Firefox, you were building the entire system.

That's just slightly different.

>> I've got a similar system, and I'm sure it would compile FF faster than
>> that if nothing else was using the system.
> 
> Hmm, OK. Apparently I imagined it then. o_O

No, but you did inadequately describe it.  You didn't "compile firefox", 
you "compiled everything needed to compile firefox, including all the 
tools and the libraries necessary to complete that task".

Building on Gentoo is very different from actually compiling software.  
Gentoo is intended as an "everything built from source, optimised for 
your system" distribution.  That's not actually the normal way Linux 
systems are built.

>>>> That's kinda the point of "Free Software"
>>>
>>> Sure. That's the general idea of a free license. But some licenses are
>>> freer than others. And different distros have different ideas about
>>> that. (See, again, Debian classifying POV-Ray as non-free.)
>>
>> But not when it comes to the GPL.  The kernel and many of the utilities
>> and programs that make up a distribution also are.  I can't arbitrarily
>> decide that you can't have access to it because I want to charge you
>> for my particular collection.
> 
> Well, that's true enough. But without looking at the license for every
> single component in the OpenSUSE system, I don't know if there's some
> customer SUSE-only thing in it which has a less permissive license or
> something. So I was just asking.

That's fair, and I was just answering.  :)

openSUSE has the "OSS" and "non-OSS" repositories.  The OSS repositories 
contain, as I recall, software that complies with the OSI's definition of 
"free".  By default, openSUSE only installs those packages (which is why 
closed-source video/wireless drivers aren't included - because those 
aren't distributed under an OSI-compliant 'free' license - also why 
proprietary codecs aren't included, or libdvdcss, or other such software).

>>> Sure, but presumably they only *support* your products if you pay for
>>> an expensive support package?
>>
>> It depends on the product.  You might look into it (there's no reason
>> for me to do so for you, you can navigate the HP site as well as I
>> can).
> 
> OK, well let me put it this way: I would be /surprised/ if HP are
> interested in helping anybody not paying for the priviledge.

If you bought the product, you've already paid for the privilege of 
getting at least fundamental setup help for the product.  If you can't 
get it to work, you're likely to return it, and returns cost them money.  
It's in their financial interest to support any product in at least a 
minimal fashion.

>>> The fact that I'm running from the standard ISO image of the live CD
>>> tells you it doesn't have any VM tools installed. (Unless there are
>>> any present on the disk itself.) I'll admit I forgot to include the
>>> version numbers.
>>
>> "Standard ISO image of the live CD" doesn't tell me which one (there
>> are at least two for openSUSE).
> 
> And I said somewhere earlier that I'd tried both the GNOME and KDE live
> CDs.

That's an important thing to include in the report - as you've mentioned, 
this particular thread has gotten quite long, and it's not really simple 
to keep track of all the assertions you've made about this particular 
problem. :)

But even then, you still haven't specified the version used. ;)

>> I'd have to look, but the hardware detection may well see that it's in
>> a VM and run the GPL'ed VMware tools (I'd have to look).
> 
> Well, yes at any rate, this is a question for the correct forum.
> Presumably there will be people there who don't even need to look this
> up.

Very likely. :)

>>>> Computers don't tend to do things for "random" reasons.
>>>
>>> This is why it disturbs me so when a computer does something for no
>>> apparent reason. Like booting the same VM multiple times, when it can
>>> have no record of what happened before, and yet seeing a different
>>> result each time...
>>
>> That can mean there's a hardware issue (e.g, bad memory), or in the
>> program that's running in the VM there's a memory leak or some other
>> oddity.
> 
> I would suspect it's a VMware glitch. Every other VM works just fine,
> so...

There again, though, read ESR's essay on asking questions - here you're 
assuming an answer, instead of describing the problem.  But you've also 
not specified the version of VMware used (I think you said it's running 
on a Windows host, but you didn't specify which release of Windows).  But 
you're not likely the only person who's trying to do this, and if it were 
an expected glitch, then there would probably be something in the VMware 
forums or the openSUSE forums about it.  If there isn't, either of those 
places may be appropriate to ask the question.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 23/10/2011 8:36 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> That's certainly true.  I know some who work on helpdesks who suggest it
> to buy time to research the issue.  Not always a good idea, though,
> because if the problem doesn't come back, then you have to wait for the
> next incidence in order to try to address it.:)
By then it might be someone else's problem. :-P

Seriously though, there are sp many things that can add up to a SNAFU 
that a power off reset is the simplest solution. Like. who test software 
100%, if it at all possible.

Yes I've fault found your problem and it is a memory leak so you can 
report it and wait for a fix or reboot when it happens. Your call! ;-)

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 23/10/2011 9:57 PM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Is it really worth abandoning everything I've ever cared about just to 
> have more coins in my pocket?
It might be. You've only worked in one place in all your life. You don't 
know.

>
> That's not a rhetorical question. The answer I suppose depends on your 
> priorities. If you value happiness more than money, then I guess that 
> fixes the answer...
You don't sound happy.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 23/10/2011 9:44 PM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Who the hell has internet access from a telephone?! 

I bet the majority of people your age in MK do.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 10/23/2011 11:01, Jim Henderson wrote:
> That's a Windows answer to most problems, sadly.

It's actually the answer to most closed-source proprietary systems. If you 
combine code from lots of independent developers without any way of checking 
that it's done correctly (i.e., you have no source, and no central 
repository), then there are not uncommonly situations where there are race 
conditions, or one program is using a resource the other program expects, or 
etc. When you get in a bad state, the fastest and easiest way to fix it is 
to reboot. If you don't have the source or detailed insight into the system 
to see what's wrong, and all you care is whether it's working, it's a decent 
solution.

If your google search times out, what do you do? You refresh the page. What 
could *I* do? Something a bit deeper, most likely. You don't have that 
visibility, tho.

> a function of your teammates or their nationality, it's the way Microsoft
> has trained people to "troubleshoot".

And how do people fix such problems in MacOSX, or on their Android phone? 
It's not Microsoft. It's just that Microsoft provides a huge proprietary 
platform with no checks on who can use it.

> That can mean there's a hardware issue (e.g, bad memory), or in the
> program that's running in the VM there's a memory leak or some other
> oddity.

Or a race condition, which is not at all uncommon.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   People tell me I am the counter-example.

Post a reply to this message

On 10/23/2011 13:44, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Who the hell has internet access from a telephone?!

I bet the other sysadmins in your company do. Get your company to pay for 
it. ;-)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   People tell me I am the counter-example.

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 15:12:34 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> On 10/23/2011 11:01, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> That's a Windows answer to most problems, sadly.
> 
> It's actually the answer to most closed-source proprietary systems. If
> you combine code from lots of independent developers without any way of
> checking that it's done correctly (i.e., you have no source, and no
> central repository), then there are not uncommonly situations where
> there are race conditions, or one program is using a resource the other
> program expects, or etc. When you get in a bad state, the fastest and
> easiest way to fix it is to reboot. If you don't have the source or
> detailed insight into the system to see what's wrong, and all you care
> is whether it's working, it's a decent solution.
> 
> If your google search times out, what do you do? You refresh the page.
> What could *I* do? Something a bit deeper, most likely. You don't have
> that visibility, tho.

If a search times out for me, I try pinging google.com to see if the 
problem is at my end.  I then also try things like checking my router, 
checking the route, and using "downforeveryoneorjustme.com" to see if the 
site is actually down or if it's something beyond me.

But maybe I'm an abberation.

>> a function of your teammates or their nationality, it's the way
>> Microsoft has trained people to "troubleshoot".
> 
> And how do people fix such problems in MacOSX, or on their Android
> phone? It's not Microsoft. It's just that Microsoft provides a huge
> proprietary platform with no checks on who can use it.

Well, I can tell you that when I run into trouble, I actually do take the 
time to try to figure out what's going wrong rather than just refreshing 
or rebooting.

Because I would far rather not run into a preventable issue over and over 
again.  I get bored with the same problems cropping up, so I try to 
resolve them.

>> That can mean there's a hardware issue (e.g, bad memory), or in the
>> program that's running in the VM there's a memory leak or some other
>> oddity.
> 
> Or a race condition, which is not at all uncommon.

True.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 22:57:29 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 23/10/2011 8:36 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> That's certainly true.  I know some who work on helpdesks who suggest
>> it to buy time to research the issue.  Not always a good idea, though,
>> because if the problem doesn't come back, then you have to wait for the
>> next incidence in order to try to address it.:)
> By then it might be someone else's problem. :-P

I've never taken the position that I *might* have moved onto something 
else, so I don't have to worry about it. :)

> Seriously though, there are sp many things that can add up to a SNAFU
> that a power off reset is the simplest solution. Like. who test software
> 100%, if it at all possible.
> 
> Yes I've fault found your problem and it is a memory leak so you can
> report it and wait for a fix or reboot when it happens. Your call! ;-)

Sure, but at least I can get to the point to report it.  If it's a 
serious enough problem, I'll push it higher until it gets addressed.  
Done that with Novell, Microsoft, SUSE, and a few other tech companies 
whose products I've worked with or bought.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

>> Why did you even apply?!" I'd feel like I wasted everybody's time.
>
> What if they said "We'll give you $150,000 more each year to move to
> London"?

That's almost a hundred grand in UK currency. Nobody earns that much.

>> More to the point, I absolutely hate
>> London, so unless they're going to pay me 10x what I get now, it
>> wouldn't be worth it.
>
> Can it hurt to try? Trust me, you'd not be wasting anyone's time. If
> nothing else, if you're 100% dead set against setting foot in london,
> tell the interviewer that. I have no idea where all the offices are.

AFAIK, London is their only UK presence. (Although obviously they 
themselves would have a better idea than I do.)

And it's not that I don't ever want to come to London, just that I don't 
want to do so with any great frequency. Once per month wouldn't be so 
bad. Once per day would be.

Post a reply to this message

On 23/10/2011 11:16 PM, Darren New wrote:
> On 10/23/2011 13:44, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> Who the hell has internet access from a telephone?!
>
> I bet the other sysadmins in your company do. Get your company to pay
> for it. ;-)

I know a few of the more important members of staff get a company phone. 
People like the CEO, the site managers, and so on. I'm not nearly 
important enough for that. :-P (Besides, who *wants* to be contactable 
24/7?)

Post a reply to this message

On 24/10/2011 8:58 AM, Invisible wrote:
>>
>> What if they said "We'll give you $150,000 more each year to move to
>> London"?
>
> That's almost a hundred grand in UK currency. Nobody earns that much.
>

Yes people do. I know several.

>
> AFAIK, London is their only UK presence. (Although obviously they 
> themselves would have a better idea than I do.)
>
> And it's not that I don't ever want to come to London, just that I 
> don't want to do so with any great frequency. Once per month wouldn't 
> be so bad. Once per day would be.

Commuting from MK to Victoria would take at least 75 minutes each way by 
train and tube and cost about GBP 50 per day. As for driving there, no 
one in their right mind would drive into central London to work in an 
office. AFAIR parking is GBP 4 per hour.



-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

>>> What if they said "We'll give you $150,000 more each year to move to
>>> London"?
>>
>> That's almost a hundred grand in UK currency. Nobody earns that much.
>
> Yes people do. I know several.

Sure, the CEO of a large corporation might earn something like that. 
(Depending on how large, of course.) Normal humans don't earn that sort 
of money.

> Commuting from MK to Victoria would take at least 75 minutes each way by
> train and tube and cost about GBP 50 per day.

Yeah, not fun.

> As for driving there, no
> one in their right mind would drive into central London to work in an
> office. AFAIR parking is GBP 4 per hour.

The cost of parking is the least of your worries. Have you *seen* the 
traffic?! At rush hour? Truly no sane person would do this unless they 
had absolutely no alternative...

Post a reply to this message

>> What if they said "We'll give you $150,000 more each year to move to
>> London"?
>
> That's almost a hundred grand in UK currency. Nobody earns that much.

Rather than just *say* that, I decided to go and check with someone who 
knows more than me. And according to the Office of National Statistics, 
I'm right. :-P

More precisely: I found income statistics which cover
- Data gathered for 2010.
- All regions of the UK.
- All sectors of employment.
- All ages, races and so forth.
- Full-time employment only.
- Total income. (Base pay + overtime, bonuses, etc.)
According to that data, the 90th percentile for income is roughly 
£50,000/year.

In other words, if you earn more than £50k, you are in the top 10% of 
the entire [full-time employed] population of this country. And that's 
*half* the income you're talking about. :-P

(I can't reliably extrapolate what percentile £100k would be. There 
isn't enough data. Any answer you could come up with would just be 
guessing at this point.)

Looking at a different report covering April 2011 to June 2011, I get 
£47k as the 90th percentile. (This report might include part-time 
employment, I'm not sure. Regardless, it's a very similar figure.)

Post a reply to this message

On 24/10/2011 10:50 AM, Invisible wrote:
>>>> What if they said "We'll give you $150,000 more each year to move to
>>>> London"?
>>>
>>> That's almost a hundred grand in UK currency. Nobody earns that much.
>>
>> Yes people do. I know several.
>
> Sure, the CEO of a large corporation might earn something like that. 
> (Depending on how large, of course.) Normal humans don't earn that 
> sort of money.
>
No, trust me normal people do earn that sort of money but they tend to 
be contractors, in my experience.

>> Commuting from MK to Victoria would take at least 75 minutes each way by
>> train and tube and cost about GBP 50 per day.
>
> Yeah, not fun.
>
>> As for driving there, no
>> one in their right mind would drive into central London to work in an
>> office. AFAIR parking is GBP 4 per hour.
>
> The cost of parking is the least of your worries. Have you *seen* the 
> traffic?! At rush hour? Truly no sane person would do this unless they 
> had absolutely no alternative...
A nightmare. When I occasionally work in London I take the bus or the tube.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

>> Sure, the CEO of a large corporation might earn something like that.
>> (Depending on how large, of course.) Normal humans don't earn that
>> sort of money.
>>
> No, trust me normal people do earn that sort of money but they tend to
> be contractors, in my experience.

Like I said, the ONS claims that such a figure puts you well beyond the 
90th percentile.

>> The cost of parking is the least of your worries. Have you *seen* the
>> traffic?! At rush hour? Truly no sane person would do this unless they
>> had absolutely no alternative...

> A nightmare. When I occasionally work in London I take the bus or the tube.

I usually go by train as well. (Then the fun part becomes figuring out 
where to park at MK station...)

Post a reply to this message

On 9/30/2011 10:45 AM, Invisible wrote:
> On 30/09/2011 04:26 PM, Mike Raiford wrote:
>
>> Some, and maybe all of that is happening, but it isn't done by filling
>> out scientific method worksheets like I had to do in school.
>
> Those scientific method worksheets we had to do at school... I work in a
> company where people perform ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC EXPERIMENTS, and let me
> tell you, it looks /nothing like/ anything you saw at school!
>

Nothing in the real world ever does. :)

> (On the other hand, there /is/ an absurd amount of paperwork involved...)
>

I can imagine the amount of detail they need to go into to produce the 
type of testing feedback their clients need. But, IIRC the company you 
work for provides analysis services, so I would expect that to be thorough

>> Definitely. Rote memorization teaches nothing, except how to memorize.
>
> This.
>
> I still think they should teach String Theory in schools - to
> demonstrate how even though something is widely respected, has brilliant
> people working on it, and involves amazingly complex mathematics, that
> doesn't make it science. Being testable makes it science.

Then your average folk will start whining and crying about how hard 
science is and how it's not practical.
-- 
~Mike

Post a reply to this message

>> Those scientific method worksheets we had to do at school... I work in a
>> company where people perform ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC EXPERIMENTS, and let me
>> tell you, it looks /nothing like/ anything you saw at school!
>
> Nothing in the real world ever does. :)

I swear it's just busy-work to keep the kids quiet for a few hours...

>> (On the other hand, there /is/ an absurd amount of paperwork involved...)
>
> I can imagine the amount of detail they need to go into to produce the
> type of testing feedback their clients need. But, IIRC the company you
> work for provides analysis services, so I would expect that to be thorough

Well, the work we do theoretically affects human health. Like, if one of 
our experiments goes wrong, people could potentially *die*. Law-makers 
get really twitchy when that happens...

>> I still think they should teach String Theory in schools - to
>> demonstrate how even though something is widely respected, has brilliant
>> people working on it, and involves amazingly complex mathematics, that
>> doesn't make it science. Being testable makes it science.
>
> Then your average folk will start whining and crying about how hard
> science is and how it's not practical.

By "teach string theory", I don't mean that people should actually learn 
all the exotic mathematics involved. More that they should be taught why 
string theory isn't science, and atomic theory is.

Post a reply to this message

On 24/10/2011 1:23 PM, Invisible wrote:
>>> Sure, the CEO of a large corporation might earn something like that.
>>> (Depending on how large, of course.) Normal humans don't earn that
>>> sort of money.
>>>
>> No, trust me normal people do earn that sort of money but they tend to
>> be contractors, in my experience.
>
> Like I said, the ONS claims that such a figure puts you well beyond 
> the 90th percentile.
>
Me! I never said I did.

>
>> A nightmare. When I occasionally work in London I take the bus or the 
>> tube.
>
> I usually go by train as well. (Then the fun part becomes figuring out 
> where to park at MK station...)

You'd have to go early before it fills up.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 09:06:58 +0100, Invisible wrote:

> On 23/10/2011 11:16 PM, Darren New wrote:
>> On 10/23/2011 13:44, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> Who the hell has internet access from a telephone?!
>>
>> I bet the other sysadmins in your company do. Get your company to pay
>> for it. ;-)
> 
> I know a few of the more important members of staff get a company phone.
> People like the CEO, the site managers, and so on. I'm not nearly
> important enough for that. :-P (Besides, who *wants* to be contactable
> 24/7?)

Generally, businesses want their IT support staff to be contactable 24x7 
if the organisation operates during those hours.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:50:44 +0100, Invisible wrote:

>>>> What if they said "We'll give you $150,000 more each year to move to
>>>> London"?
>>>
>>> That's almost a hundred grand in UK currency. Nobody earns that much.
>>
>> Yes people do. I know several.
> 
> Sure, the CEO of a large corporation might earn something like that.
> (Depending on how large, of course.) Normal humans don't earn that sort
> of money.

I know people who do as well, and they're not CEOs of large corporations.

>> Commuting from MK to Victoria would take at least 75 minutes each way
>> by train and tube and cost about GBP 50 per day.
> 
> Yeah, not fun.
> 
>> As for driving there, no
>> one in their right mind would drive into central London to work in an
>> office. AFAIR parking is GBP 4 per hour.
> 
> The cost of parking is the least of your worries. Have you *seen* the
> traffic?! At rush hour? Truly no sane person would do this unless they
> had absolutely no alternative...

So everybody who is actually driving in London rush hour is insane?

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 24/10/2011 5:05 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> As for driving there, no
>>> >>  one in their right mind would drive into central London to work in an
>>> >>  office. AFAIR parking is GBP 4 per hour.
>> >  
>> >  The cost of parking is the least of your worries. Have you*seen*  the
>> >  traffic?! At rush hour? Truly no sane person would do this unless they
>> >  had absolutely no alternative...
> So everybody who is actually driving in London rush hour is insane?

I didn’t say that, Mr Strawman. ;-)

What I did say was that you need your head examined if you drive in 
Central London out of choice during the rush hour.
The week before last, I left Paddington about 5pm and it took me over an 
hour and a half to drive less than 15 miles.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

>> I know a few of the more important members of staff get a company phone.
>> People like the CEO, the site managers, and so on. I'm not nearly
>> important enough for that. :-P (Besides, who *wants* to be contactable
>> 24/7?)
>
> Generally, businesses want their IT support staff to be contactable 24x7
> if the organisation operates during those hours.

Yeah. Fortunately, I don't have that problem. A few of our staff *are* 
contactable at every hour, but I don't need to be one of them.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

>> To be fair, I don't think they try to exclude me on purpose. It's just
>> that they all work in the same room, and I don't.
>
> Right - when you have one remote member of a team, it does require a
> conscious effort to include them.

And they make a half-hearted attempt to do that. It's just that, like so 
much in this department, it's not very thorough.

>> Is it really worth abandoning everything I've ever cared about just to
>> have more coins in my pocket?
>>
>> That's not a rhetorical question. The answer I suppose depends on your
>> priorities. If you value happiness more than money, then I guess that
>> fixes the answer...
>
> Except that you don't seem particularly happy, either.  Maybe that's just
> what comes across here, but you often sound quite miserable and
> depressed.  You worry about people in your own town beating you up, you
> hate your job, your mom drives you crazy....About the only thing you've
> said you like is the way Milton Keynes is organised.  That seems like a
> very minor reason (to me, but hey, it may be very significant to you) to
> stay someplace you hate around people you can't stand to be with who
> don't respect you.

In order to answer this properly, it becomes necessary to understand 
that my life has changed over the last few years.

I used to live in a box, paranoid that if I set foot outside, I would be 
beaten to death. After all, almost every social interaction that I had 
ever experienced consisted either of being ignored or attacked.

My life isn't like that any more. For the very first time in my life, I 
have *friends*. Actual, physical people that I can reach out and touch. 
[But only if dance class is on this week, sadly...] I'm happier than 
I've ever been at any prior point in my life.

But yes, I still really dislike my job. I just feel that I'm wasting my 
life there. And my mum still drives me crazy! (In fact, just tonight 
I've had to put up with 3 hours of her bawling her eyes out like an 
overtired 2 year old...)

> Leaving home, though, isn't "abandonment of everything you've ever cared
> about", though - I left my parents to go to college and to pursue a
> career.  I still am a major part of my mom's life (my dad having passed
> away a few years ago).

I'd love to not have to live with my mum any more. It's just that I 
actually like MK. I have actual friends here, I love my dance school, 
and to be honest, every other city I've seen is just old and run-down.

>> Well, I suppose there is something to be said for just replacing the
>> entire car... It's potentially a lot quicker than a lot of complex
>> troubleshooting. But to me, it just seems like the "wrong" answer.
>
> It also tends to be a lot more expensive, and to most businesses, saving
> money is a key part of survival.  And there's no guarantee that the new
> car you buy won't have the same problem, or a different - and more
> difficult - problem.

I hear you. Like I said, *I* don't think it's the right answer. But hey, 
that's just me. Apparently.


>> It was getting late at night. I told Gentoo to "emerge mozilla", and
>> went to bed. By the morning, it has nerly finished compiling.
>
> So with gentoo, an emerge actually downloads the code needed to build,
> and it builds all the dependencies.  So you weren't just building
> Firefox, you were building the entire system.
>
> That's just slightly different.

Well, no, I had already built several large things at this point. 
(Including X11 and KDE.) So those were already done. However, yeah, it's 
possible it pulled in some other dependencies as well as Firefox itself. 
Given that the ebuild system spews out commands longer than one terminal 
screenful (WTF?), it's hard to say.

>> OK, well let me put it this way: I would be /surprised/ if HP are
>> interested in helping anybody not paying for the priviledge.
>
> If you bought the product, you've already paid for the privilege of
> getting at least fundamental setup help for the product.  If you can't
> get it to work, you're likely to return it, and returns cost them money.
> It's in their financial interest to support any product in at least a
> minimal fashion.

Sure. But if it's just a glitch in their driver that make it not work 
with a certain product, they aren't going to bother fixing that. Not 
unless there's money in it.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:59:59 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 24/10/2011 5:05 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>> As for driving there, no
>>>> >>  one in their right mind would drive into central London to work
>>>> >>  in an office. AFAIR parking is GBP 4 per hour.
>>> >  
>>> >  The cost of parking is the least of your worries. Have you*seen* 
>>> >  the traffic?! At rush hour? Truly no sane person would do this
>>> >  unless they had absolutely no alternative...
>> So everybody who is actually driving in London rush hour is insane?
> 
> I didn’t say that, Mr Strawman. ;-)

Ooooh!  I didn't say you said that, check who my post was in reply to. ;)

> What I did say was that you need your head examined if you drive in
> Central London out of choice during the rush hour. The week before last,
> I left Paddington about 5pm and it took me over an hour and a half to
> drive less than 15 miles.

I'd believe that. :)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 10/24/2011 6:51, Invisible wrote:
> I swear it's just busy-work to keep the kids quiet for a few hours...

Nowhere near as bad as art class,tho.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   People tell me I am the counter-example.

Post a reply to this message

On 10/23/2011 20:47, Jim Henderson wrote:
> But maybe I'm an abberation.

You do all that if one web page times out, before you try just refreshing 
the page? Yes, you're an abberation. :)

I bet you disassemble the door of your car every time you hit the remote and 
it doesn't lock on the first try, too. ;-)

>>> a function of your teammates or their nationality, it's the way
>>> Microsoft has trained people to "troubleshoot".
>>
>> And how do people fix such problems in MacOSX, or on their Android
>> phone? It's not Microsoft. It's just that Microsoft provides a huge
>> proprietary platform with no checks on who can use it.
>
> Well, I can tell you that when I run into trouble, I actually do take the
> time to try to figure out what's going wrong rather than just refreshing
> or rebooting.

Well, sure. But it takes knowledge of what's happening inside the machine 
and what might likely be wrong. If you don't really know the difference 
between RAM and disk, you're not likely to try trouble-shooting a fragmented 
page file or something.

> Because I would far rather not run into a preventable issue over and over
> again.  I get bored with the same problems cropping up, so I try to
> resolve them.

Sure. But we're talking about a one-off, for the most part. If it keeps 
happening, people go back and complain it didn't get fixed with a reboot.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   People tell me I am the counter-example.

Post a reply to this message

On 10/24/2011 0:58, Invisible wrote:
>>> Why did you even apply?!" I'd feel like I wasted everybody's time.
>>
>> What if they said "We'll give you $150,000 more each year to move to
>> London"?
>
> That's almost a hundred grand in UK currency. Nobody earns that much.

I earn more, and I'm at the low end of the scale for what I do. No, you 
probably won't earn that much because you don't have the experience, but 
maybe you'll get something more significant than what you have now.

> AFAIK, London is their only UK presence. (Although obviously they themselves
> would have a better idea than I do.)

Indeed. There are lots of companies that have offices where you wouldn't 
have thought they have an office. Like, the office I'm in now. They don't 
really advertise where they have offices.

> And it's not that I don't ever want to come to London, just that I don't
> want to do so with any great frequency. Once per month wouldn't be so bad.
> Once per day would be.

How far away is it? Get a place in London, come home on the weekends, or for 
dancing.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   People tell me I am the counter-example.

Post a reply to this message

On 10/24/2011 1:55, Stephen wrote:
> cost about GBP 50 per day.

WTF? My drive is 75 miles, and it costs about $25 round trip counting tolls. 
And public transit is 3x as much in England?


-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   People tell me I am the counter-example.

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:08:54 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>>> To be fair, I don't think they try to exclude me on purpose. It's just
>>> that they all work in the same room, and I don't.
>>
>> Right - when you have one remote member of a team, it does require a
>> conscious effort to include them.
> 
> And they make a half-hearted attempt to do that. It's just that, like so
> much in this department, it's not very thorough.

It takes effort and time, and if they're really busy, it's something that 
probably doesn't get a lot of attention.  Sadly, that's pretty normal.

>> Except that you don't seem particularly happy, either.  Maybe that's
>> just what comes across here, but you often sound quite miserable and
>> depressed.  You worry about people in your own town beating you up, you
>> hate your job, your mom drives you crazy....About the only thing you've
>> said you like is the way Milton Keynes is organised.  That seems like a
>> very minor reason (to me, but hey, it may be very significant to you)
>> to stay someplace you hate around people you can't stand to be with who
>> don't respect you.
> 
> In order to answer this properly, it becomes necessary to understand
> that my life has changed over the last few years.
> 
> I used to live in a box, paranoid that if I set foot outside, I would be
> beaten to death. After all, almost every social interaction that I had
> ever experienced consisted either of being ignored or attacked.
> 
> My life isn't like that any more. For the very first time in my life, I
> have *friends*. Actual, physical people that I can reach out and touch.
> [But only if dance class is on this week, sadly...] I'm happier than
> I've ever been at any prior point in my life.

It's good that things have improved for you - really, and I'm very happy 
to hear that.  :)

Now that you've seen that life can be different, you're better prepared 
to make a bigger change.  I understand not wanting to risk the current 
level of happiness, I do.  At the same time, now that you know life can 
be better, you know that even the current situation can be improved.

That's a very positive change for you (indeed, it would be for anyone). :)

> But yes, I still really dislike my job. I just feel that I'm wasting my
> life there. And my mum still drives me crazy! (In fact, just tonight
> I've had to put up with 3 hours of her bawling her eyes out like an
> overtired 2 year old...)

The more you write about your mum, the more I wonder if she needs to be 
evaluated.  I don't have enough data (and that's probably a good thing), 
but it does sound like she should at least talk to a professional.

>> Leaving home, though, isn't "abandonment of everything you've ever
>> cared about", though - I left my parents to go to college and to pursue
>> a career.  I still am a major part of my mom's life (my dad having
>> passed away a few years ago).
> 
> I'd love to not have to live with my mum any more. It's just that I
> actually like MK. I have actual friends here, I love my dance school,
> and to be honest, every other city I've seen is just old and run-down.

Indeed that's a "problem" with living in a country that has a long 
history.

There are other places in the world, though, where things are "newer".  
Though arguably in the current economic climate, an overseas relocation 
is likely to be more difficult (I know, I've been talking to friends over 
there about relocation to the UK, but it doesn't look like that's going 
to happen anytime soon, partly because work visas are in very short 
supply at the moment).

>> It also tends to be a lot more expensive, and to most businesses,
>> saving money is a key part of survival.  And there's no guarantee that
>> the new car you buy won't have the same problem, or a different - and
>> more difficult - problem.
> 
> I hear you. Like I said, *I* don't think it's the right answer. But hey,
> that's just me. Apparently.

Well, that's two of us.  And I know others. :)

>> So with gentoo, an emerge actually downloads the code needed to build,
>> and it builds all the dependencies.  So you weren't just building
>> Firefox, you were building the entire system.
>>
>> That's just slightly different.
> 
> Well, no, I had already built several large things at this point.
> (Including X11 and KDE.) So those were already done. However, yeah, it's
> possible it pulled in some other dependencies as well as Firefox itself.
> Given that the ebuild system spews out commands longer than one terminal
> screenful (WTF?), it's hard to say.

My point is that Gentoo is not a good representative sample of how long 
it takes to build software because that's how Gentoo does package 
management.

>>> OK, well let me put it this way: I would be /surprised/ if HP are
>>> interested in helping anybody not paying for the priviledge.
>>
>> If you bought the product, you've already paid for the privilege of
>> getting at least fundamental setup help for the product.  If you can't
>> get it to work, you're likely to return it, and returns cost them
>> money. It's in their financial interest to support any product in at
>> least a minimal fashion.
> 
> Sure. But if it's just a glitch in their driver that make it not work
> with a certain product, they aren't going to bother fixing that. Not
> unless there's money in it.

Customer satisfaction has a value to companies as well.  HP is big enough 
to know that to be the case.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 08:58:01 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> On 10/23/2011 20:47, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> But maybe I'm an abberation.
> 
> You do all that if one web page times out, before you try just
> refreshing the page? Yes, you're an abberation. :)

Well, OK, I'll try a refresh first, but if it's reproducible, then I go 
further with it.  Reproducing a problem is a valid troubleshooting step.

> I bet you disassemble the door of your car every time you hit the remote
> and it doesn't lock on the first try, too. ;-)

Damn, have you got a camera in my garage or something? ;)

>> Well, I can tell you that when I run into trouble, I actually do take
>> the time to try to figure out what's going wrong rather than just
>> refreshing or rebooting.
> 
> Well, sure. But it takes knowledge of what's happening inside the
> machine and what might likely be wrong. If you don't really know the
> difference between RAM and disk, you're not likely to try
> trouble-shooting a fragmented page file or something.

Yes, and that's the point.  People trained in the management and 
operation of server operating systems should damned well know the 
difference between RAM and disk.  It's kinda their job to know that. ;)

>> Because I would far rather not run into a preventable issue over and
>> over again.  I get bored with the same problems cropping up, so I try
>> to resolve them.
> 
> Sure. But we're talking about a one-off, for the most part. If it keeps
> happening, people go back and complain it didn't get fixed with a
> reboot.

It's been my experience that in far more cases with Windows admins than 
with those of other systems, "reboot the system" becomes the "fix" rather 
than trying to troubleshoot it.

Once upon a time, I worked for a Fortune 50 company with several thousand 
Windows servers.  Informix was running on them, and there was a memory 
leak.  "Reboot the system" was the "fix", to the extent that the reboot 
was scripted and scheduled to run nightly.

Now, part of the reason for that was that Informix was taking their time 
fixing the problem - but the fact that the 'troubleshooting' got pushed 
up the chain to the developer doesn't eliminate the fact that Informix's 
developers also felt that rebooting thousands of servers nightly (or 
weekly, perhaps, it's been almost 10 years since this situation happened) 
was better than actually fixing the problem.  A problem that was fully 
reproducible.

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Mon, 24 Oct 2011 20:54:19 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>>> I know a few of the more important members of staff get a company
>>> phone. People like the CEO, the site managers, and so on. I'm not
>>> nearly important enough for that. :-P (Besides, who *wants* to be
>>> contactable 24/7?)
>>
>> Generally, businesses want their IT support staff to be contactable
>> 24x7 if the organisation operates during those hours.
> 
> Yeah. Fortunately, I don't have that problem. A few of our staff *are*
> contactable at every hour, but I don't need to be one of them.

I remember having one job in IT that was like that.  It was nice (of 
course, I tended to work really late into the evenings anyways, but 
that's another matter).

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:01:25 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> On 10/24/2011 1:55, Stephen wrote:
>> cost about GBP 50 per day.
> 
> WTF? My drive is 75 miles, and it costs about $25 round trip counting
> tolls. And public transit is 3x as much in England?

Yep.

But compared to the price of owning a car in the UK - with petrol prices, 
congestion charges (in London), etc - it can be a more convenient form of 
transportation, unless there's a strike...

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 25/10/2011 5:18 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> I'd love to not have to live with my mum any more. It's just that I
>> >  actually like MK. I have actual friends here, I love my dance school,
>> >  and to be honest, every other city I've seen is just old and run-down.
> Indeed that's a "problem" with living in a country that has a long
> history.


Or an advantage if you are that way inclined. I lived in a new town for 
four years. To me it was soulless and boring beyond belief, I was even 
glad to move to Aberdeen. It is just a point of view.


-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 25/10/2011 5:01 PM, Darren New wrote:
> On 10/24/2011 1:55, Stephen wrote:
>> cost about GBP 50 per day.
>
> WTF? My drive is 75 miles, and it costs about $25 round trip counting 
> tolls. And public transit is 3x as much in England?
>
>
That was costed for public transport. I reckon that to drive would take 
about 2.5 ~ 3 hours be charges £8 for the congestion charge and about 
£30 for parking. The average price of petrol in my area is £1.358 which 
is about $8.21 per US Gallon. Two months ago in NM I was paying $3.60 
per US Gallon

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

>>>> and to be honest, every other city I've seen is just old and run-down.
>> Indeed that's a "problem" with living in a country that has a long
>> history.
>
> Or an advantage if you are that way inclined. I lived in a new town for
> four years. To me it was soulless and boring beyond belief, I was even
> glad to move to Aberdeen. It is just a point of view.

Yeah, I've heard a lot of people say that MK is a "box city" with no 
soul. But every other city I've ever seen just look old and run-down. 
I'm used to things being shiny and new...

Interestingly, I've never met anybody who doesn't live in MK who has a 
single good word to say about it. Everybody has either never heard of 
it, or they hate it. I have no idea why.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 17:53:45 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 25/10/2011 5:18 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> I'd love to not have to live with my mum any more. It's just that I
>>> >  actually like MK. I have actual friends here, I love my dance
>>> >  school, and to be honest, every other city I've seen is just old
>>> >  and run-down.
>> Indeed that's a "problem" with living in a country that has a long
>> history.
> 
> 
> Or an advantage if you are that way inclined. I lived in a new town for
> four years. To me it was soulless and boring beyond belief, I was even
> glad to move to Aberdeen. It is just a point of view.

Well, that's why I said "problem" instead of *problem*. ;)

I tend to agree, I like having older buildings around.  However, having 
lived in a somewhat older house (by US standards), I think the decision 
to go for something more modern in the next place (a flat, no less) is 
right for us. :)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

On 25/10/2011 6:59 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:

>>> Indeed that's a "problem" with living in a country that has a long
>>> history.
>>
>> Or an advantage if you are that way inclined. I lived in a new town for
>> four years. To me it was soulless and boring beyond belief, I was even
>> glad to move to Aberdeen. It is just a point of view.
> Well, that's why I said "problem" instead of *problem*. ;)

Tell an old man what the difference is between

"problem" instead of *problem* ?



>
> I tend to agree, I like having older buildings around.  However, having
> lived in a somewhat older house (by US standards), I think the decision
> to go for something more modern in the next place (a flat, no less) is
> right for us. :)
>

I like living in flats, I've never lived in a house with a garden.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 25/10/2011 05:00 PM, Darren New wrote:
> On 10/24/2011 0:58, Invisible wrote:
>>>> Why did you even apply?!" I'd feel like I wasted everybody's time.
>>>
>>> What if they said "We'll give you $150,000 more each year to move to
>>> London"?
>>
>> That's almost a hundred grand in UK currency. Nobody earns that much.
>
> I earn more, and I'm at the low end of the scale for what I do. No, you
> probably won't earn that much because you don't have the experience, but
> maybe you'll get something more significant than what you have now.

I'm sure very few places pay *less* than what I'm earning now. Back when 
I was actually having agents contact me, I was asking for roughly twice 
what I currently earn - and nobody seemed that surprised by such a 
figure. But ten times? That seems a stretch.

>> AFAIK, London is their only UK presence. (Although obviously they
>> themselves would have a better idea than I do.)
>
> Indeed. There are lots of companies that have offices where you wouldn't
> have thought they have an office. Like, the office I'm in now. They
> don't really advertise where they have offices.

Korg's UK headquarters are just down the road from me, in fact.

It's a 1-room office. I've been there.

>> And it's not that I don't ever want to come to London, just that I don't
>> want to do so with any great frequency. Once per month wouldn't be so
>> bad. Once per day would be.
>
> How far away is it? Get a place in London, come home on the weekends, or
> for dancing.

I'm not sure how far it is to central London. I know that my 
grandparents live just on the outskirts. It's 40 miles in distance, and 
yet it takes between 1.5 and 2 hours to drive there. (!!) I also know 
that a train trip is about an hour. (Once you've waited an hour for a 
train to actually show up...)

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Tue, 25 Oct 2011 20:58:41 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 25/10/2011 6:59 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
>>>> Indeed that's a "problem" with living in a country that has a long
>>>> history.
>>>
>>> Or an advantage if you are that way inclined. I lived in a new town
>>> for four years. To me it was soulless and boring beyond belief, I was
>>> even glad to move to Aberdeen. It is just a point of view.
>> Well, that's why I said "problem" instead of *problem*. ;)
> 
> Tell an old man what the difference is between
> 
> "problem" instead of *problem* ?

"problem" is with 'air quotes'.  *problem* is emphasized.  I guess what 
I'm trying to convey is that the two statements:

Indeed, that's a "problem" with living in a country that has a long 
history.

Indeed, that's a problem with living in a country that has a long history.

The first uses "problem" in a non-literal sense, almost an ironic sense.  
As if to say "some might think it's a problem, but I don't consider it 
so".

Clearer? ;)

>> I tend to agree, I like having older buildings around.  However, having
>> lived in a somewhat older house (by US standards), I think the decision
>> to go for something more modern in the next place (a flat, no less) is
>> right for us. :)
>>
>>
> I like living in flats, I've never lived in a house with a garden.

It's a lot of work. :)

Jim

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On 25/10/2011 11:44 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> "problem" is with 'air quotes'.*problem*  is emphasized.
Just checking that the language hasn't changed again. :-)

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:12:07 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 25/10/2011 11:44 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> "problem" is with 'air quotes'.*problem*  is emphasized.
> Just checking that the language hasn't changed again. :-)

We need an 'inotify' for the langauge, don't we? ;)

Jim

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On 10/25/2011 10:17, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> But every other city I've ever seen just look old and run-down.

Move to the west coast of the USA.  "Hey, we have this really old cathedral. 
It was built even before WWII, can you believe it?" ;-)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   People tell me I am the counter-example.

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On 10/25/2011 9:23, Jim Henderson wrote:
> It's been my experience that in far more cases with Windows admins than
> with those of other systems, "reboot the system" becomes the "fix" rather
> than trying to troubleshoot it.

Well, yes. I'll grant you that.

> Once upon a time, I worked for a Fortune 50 company with several thousand
> Windows servers.  Informix was running on them, and there was a memory
> leak.  "Reboot the system" was the "fix", to the extent that the reboot
> was scripted and scheduled to run nightly.

Same with Linux set-top boxes I was working on. Because we didn't have the 
source to the code that was leaking the memory.

And indeed, I was working on one Linux server system where they were 
catching sigsegv's and outputting "caught a signal!" to stdout, but then not 
actually recovering. So I had to pipe the output into a second process *I* 
wrote that would grep for that string and send a kill -9 and restart it when 
it got stuck.

It's not Windows per se, but proprietary software that you can't fix.

> Now, part of the reason for that was that Informix was taking their time
> fixing the problem

There ya go. :-)


-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   People tell me I am the counter-example.

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On Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:43:47 -0700, Darren New wrote:

>> Once upon a time, I worked for a Fortune 50 company with several
>> thousand Windows servers.  Informix was running on them, and there was
>> a memory leak.  "Reboot the system" was the "fix", to the extent that
>> the reboot was scripted and scheduled to run nightly.
> 
> Same with Linux set-top boxes I was working on. Because we didn't have
> the source to the code that was leaking the memory.
> 
> And indeed, I was working on one Linux server system where they were
> catching sigsegv's and outputting "caught a signal!" to stdout, but then
> not actually recovering. So I had to pipe the output into a second
> process *I* wrote that would grep for that string and send a kill -9 and
> restart it when it got stuck.
> 
> It's not Windows per se, but proprietary software that you can't fix.

Exactly. :)

>> Now, part of the reason for that was that Informix was taking their
>> time fixing the problem
> 
> There ya go. :-)

Yep.

Jim

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On 26/10/2011 09:43 PM, Darren New wrote:
> On 10/25/2011 9:23, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> It's been my experience that in far more cases with Windows admins than
>> with those of other systems, "reboot the system" becomes the "fix" rather
>> than trying to troubleshoot it.
>
> Well, yes. I'll grant you that.
>
>> Once upon a time, I worked for a Fortune 50 company with several thousand
>> Windows servers. Informix was running on them, and there was a memory
>> leak. "Reboot the system" was the "fix", to the extent that the reboot
>> was scripted and scheduled to run nightly.
>
> Same with Linux set-top boxes I was working on. Because we didn't have
> the source to the code that was leaking the memory.

> It's not Windows per se, but proprietary software that you can't fix.

One of our production systems is a crappy little thing written in VB. 
Roughly once a week somebody over in the USA files a helpdesk ticket 
saying "please reboot it". Apparently it leaks memory until it stops 
working. Reboot the server and it works again.

(What I can't figure out is why just restarting the program itself 
wouldn't fix that...)

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On 10/27/2011 1:13, Invisible wrote:
> (What I can't figure out is why just restarting the program itself wouldn't
> fix that...)

It probably would, unless it's a service that's leaking memory, in which 
case restarting the service *should* work.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   People tell me I am the counter-example.

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On 27/10/2011 05:15 PM, Darren New wrote:
> On 10/27/2011 1:13, Invisible wrote:
>> (What I can't figure out is why just restarting the program itself
>> wouldn't
>> fix that...)
>
> It probably would, unless it's a service that's leaking memory, in which
> case restarting the service *should* work.

As best as I know, it's a user GUI application. I'm not sure why the 
hell just logging out and logging back in again doesn't fix it, but 
anyway...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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