On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 19:19:49 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 23/10/2011 7:01 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> It just urks me that I'm part of a team of so-called computer experts,
>>> >  and everybody's answer to everything is "did you try rebooting it?"
>>> >  Not "hey, let me engage my brain for 15 seconds and see if I can
>>> >  come up with a real answer", just "did you try rebooting it?"
>> That's a Windows answer to most problems, sadly.  That's not
>> necessarily a function of your teammates or their nationality, it's the
>> way Microsoft has trained people to "troubleshoot".
>>
>>
> It's not just a computer solution. I have often asked people to do a
> power off reset on other equipment. It gives time to think and you never
> know the problem might just go away. ;-)

That's certainly true.  I know some who work on helpdesks who suggest it 
to buy time to research the issue.  Not always a good idea, though, 
because if the problem doesn't come back, then you have to wait for the 
next incidence in order to try to address it. :)

Jim

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>>>     I didn't say unix users have learned *all* tools via their manpages.
>>> I just said it's the case with many (or even most) tools.
>>
>> YOU didn't, no. But Jim seemed to be strongly hinting at it.
>
> No, I didn't say that, nor did I hint at that.  I was relating my own
> experience.

So saying "I learned everything I know about Unix just by reading the 
manpages" doesn't count as "strongly hinting that manpages are all you 
need"?

>> Just a few lines of example code could have helped me figure this out in
>> a few minutes instead of several hours. (And this must surely be a VFAQ
>> for shell scripting; it's just about the simplest task you could
>> possibly want to script!)
>
> for name [ [ in [ word ... ] ] ; ] do list ; done
>
> That's in the man page.

Uh... why does that need three nested levels of brackets?

Actually, suddenly I'm not sure I want to know the answer...

> To find a specific example, in my case, I'd grep through existing scripts
> on the system, starting with the init scripts.

Presumably to do that I'd have to already know how to run grep over 
every file in a directory. :-P (Not to mention knowing how to operate 
grep - it's highly non-trivial, after all - as well as how to determine 
which files are Bash scripts...)

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On 23/10/2011 05:57 PM, Darren New wrote:
> On 10/23/2011 9:15, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> On 23/10/2011 05:03 PM, Darren New wrote:
>>> On 10/23/2011 1:57, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>>> **** to execute the same command for every file in the current
>>>> directory. In
>>>
>>> Geez, dude. Third hit on google
>>
>> Yes, because the Internet is always accessible. Oh, wait...
>
> If you're in charge of administrating networks, then the answer ought to
> be "yes, yes it is."

I was trying to set this up on my home PC. :-P

But even so, if I'm trying to figure out why the Internet isn't working, 
and I need to run some tool to help me do that, the last thing I want is 
to say "how do I work this tool? Oh, let me just Google it..."

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> But even so, if I'm trying to figure out why the Internet isn't working, 
> and I need to run some tool to help me do that, the last thing I want is 
> to say "how do I work this tool? Oh, let me just Google it..."

  You use your phone to google it.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 21:03:17 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

> On 23/10/2011 05:57 PM, Darren New wrote:
>> On 10/23/2011 9:15, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> On 23/10/2011 05:03 PM, Darren New wrote:
>>>> On 10/23/2011 1:57, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>>>> **** to execute the same command for every file in the current
>>>>> directory. In
>>>>
>>>> Geez, dude. Third hit on google
>>>
>>> Yes, because the Internet is always accessible. Oh, wait...
>>
>> If you're in charge of administrating networks, then the answer ought
>> to be "yes, yes it is."
> 
> I was trying to set this up on my home PC. :-P
> 
> But even so, if I'm trying to figure out why the Internet isn't working,
> and I need to run some tool to help me do that, the last thing I want is
> to say "how do I work this tool? Oh, let me just Google it..."

Libraries.  Smart phones.  Dual-boot configurations.

We've been over this before. ;)

Jim

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On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 21:01:55 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>>>>     I didn't say unix users have learned *all* tools via their
>>>>     manpages.
>>>> I just said it's the case with many (or even most) tools.
>>>
>>> YOU didn't, no. But Jim seemed to be strongly hinting at it.
>>
>> No, I didn't say that, nor did I hint at that.  I was relating my own
>> experience.
> 
> So saying "I learned everything I know about Unix just by reading the
> manpages" doesn't count as "strongly hinting that manpages are all you
> need"?

There's a difference between "I did this" and "everybody does this".  I !
= everbody.

I also had experience with various forms of Unix from my past, so I 
didn't need the introductory stuff, because I just adapted what I already 
knew.

>>> Just a few lines of example code could have helped me figure this out
>>> in a few minutes instead of several hours. (And this must surely be a
>>> VFAQ for shell scripting; it's just about the simplest task you could
>>> possibly want to script!)
>>
>> for name [ [ in [ word ... ] ] ; ] do list ; done
>>
>> That's in the man page.
> 
> Uh... why does that need three nested levels of brackets?

You're the one who pointed out that it's BNF formatting (though I'm not 
sure that's explicitly the case).

> Actually, suddenly I'm not sure I want to know the answer...
> 
>> To find a specific example, in my case, I'd grep through existing
>> scripts on the system, starting with the init scripts.
> 
> Presumably to do that I'd have to already know how to run grep over
> every file in a directory. :-P (Not to mention knowing how to operate
> grep - it's highly non-trivial, after all - as well as how to determine
> which files are Bash scripts...)

man grep gives you the information you need to use grep.

In my case:

grep -ri for /etc/init.d | less

The /etc/init.d scripts have the benefit of being exclusively bash 
scripts.  But if you want to know if it is, you just look for:

#!/bin/bash

as the first line of the script.

Jim

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On 23/10/2011 09:13 PM, Warp wrote:
> Orchid XP v8<voi### [at] devnull>  wrote:
>> But even so, if I'm trying to figure out why the Internet isn't working,
>> and I need to run some tool to help me do that, the last thing I want is
>> to say "how do I work this tool? Oh, let me just Google it..."
>
>    You use your phone to google it.

Who the hell has internet access from a telephone?!

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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>>>>> Geez, dude. Third hit on google
>>>>
>>>> Yes, because the Internet is always accessible. Oh, wait...
>>>
>>> If you're in charge of administrating networks, then the answer ought
>>> to be "yes, yes it is."
>>
>> I was trying to set this up on my home PC. :-P
>
> Libraries.  Smart phones.  Dual-boot configurations.
>
> We've been over this before. ;)

I guess I just reject the idea that you should ever need to use Google 
to figure out how software works. It should be in the manual. :-P

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 21:44:51 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

> On 23/10/2011 09:13 PM, Warp wrote:
>> Orchid XP v8<voi### [at] devnull>  wrote:
>>> But even so, if I'm trying to figure out why the Internet isn't
>>> working, and I need to run some tool to help me do that, the last
>>> thing I want is to say "how do I work this tool? Oh, let me just
>>> Google it..."
>>
>>    You use your phone to google it.
> 
> Who the hell has internet access from a telephone?!

Anyone with a smartphone.

Jim

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On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 21:45:32 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>>>>>> Geez, dude. Third hit on google
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, because the Internet is always accessible. Oh, wait...
>>>>
>>>> If you're in charge of administrating networks, then the answer ought
>>>> to be "yes, yes it is."
>>>
>>> I was trying to set this up on my home PC. :-P
>>
>> Libraries.  Smart phones.  Dual-boot configurations.
>>
>> We've been over this before. ;)
> 
> I guess I just reject the idea that you should ever need to use Google
> to figure out how software works. It should be in the manual. :-P

It is in the manual.  The manual in Linux is called the man pages (or the 
info pages). :P

Jim

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