On 10/8/2011 14:38, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Configuration files don't autogenerate other configuration programs.

Autoconf? :-)

> Obviously you don't know many Linux users.  I know at least 5,000, and
> many of them not only love and use the GUI, but tend to have religious
> wars over which GUI is better.

I still giggle when I see someone using a gui in Linux to do things like 
find files. Just because I'm so used to the command line (and GUIs for Linux 
tend to suck horribly compared to something where it's the expected 
interface) that it looks silly to me.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 01:55:00 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

> On 09/10/2011 01:50 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 01:45:29 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Why do you need that? All that sort of thing is built into Windows.
>>>>>
>>>>> Really? So how do I create an encrypted video connection to the
>>>>> target machine, while at the same time preventing anybody else from
>>>>> doing the same?
>>>>
>>>> Remote Desktop + password.
>>>
>>> Now how do you /encrypt/ that?
>>
>> It's RDP.  It's already *encrypted*.
> 
> Yeah, right. I'll believe it when I see it.

I use it for what I work on.  The connection is encrypted.  RDP ain't VNC 
(which actually *isn't* encrypted).

When I connect to the Windows Server 2008 box for the classes I'm working 
on, I get a certificate validation request.

That sure as hell seems to be an encrypted connection.

Jim

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On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 18:00:56 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> On 10/8/2011 14:38, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Configuration files don't autogenerate other configuration programs.
> 
> Autoconf? :-)

Autoconf isn't really a configuration file.  It's a configuration file 
parser. ;)

>> Obviously you don't know many Linux users.  I know at least 5,000, and
>> many of them not only love and use the GUI, but tend to have religious
>> wars over which GUI is better.
> 
> I still giggle when I see someone using a gui in Linux to do things like
> find files. Just because I'm so used to the command line (and GUIs for
> Linux tend to suck horribly compared to something where it's the
> expected interface) that it looks silly to me.

Yeah, I do as well.  find or locate does the job just fine, and beagle 
and its successors are just resource pigs.

Though I find that the state of Linux GUIs is improving.  Certainly has 
since I started using it.

Jim

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On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 17:56:20 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> On 10/8/2011 14:23, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Windows could benefit from implementing something akin to a Linux
>> software repository for stuff like this.
> 
> They have it. Windows Update. Where your device drivers come from. :-)

I didn't know I could install Adobe Acrobat, Flash, or other third party 
software from Windows Update. ;)

(That's actually what I was talking about - not about driver installs)

>> Getting the software makers to agree might take some work,
> 
> And that is the problem. That, and commercial entities don't really want
> their software in Windows Update where people could install it without
> paying for it. The model really only works for free software.

The software in question I'm talking about is available gratis as it is.  
Like Flash, Acrobat Reader, Java, etc.

>> but then again, Adobe has Acrobat Reader in most distributions'
>> official repositories.
> 
> Probably because Adobe doesn't have to deal with it. They just have to
> give permission.

So why not something like that for Windows, too?

Jim

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>>>> Now how do you /encrypt/ that?
>>>
>>> It's RDP.  It's already *encrypted*.
>>
>> Yeah, right. I'll believe it when I see it.
>
> I use it for what I work on.  The connection is encrypted.  RDP ain't VNC
> (which actually *isn't* encrypted).
>
> When I connect to the Windows Server 2008 box for the classes I'm working
> on, I get a certificate validation request.
>
> That sure as hell seems to be an encrypted connection.

So, just because it does strong authentication, you think that means the 
actual data is encrypted?

Given how weak the password challenge/response protocol in Windows is, 
I'd be happier tunnelling via SSH or something. You know, if I could 
actually find an SSH *server* for Windows... (Then I wouldn't need any 
extra hardware at all.)

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 17:54:10 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> On 10/8/2011 14:21, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 09:42:26 -0700, Darren New wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/8/2011 5:40, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>> It's hard to understand why people have trouble affording a single
>>>> hard drive when you buy in such bulk quantities.
>>>
>>> And remember that you're not really their big customer. When 85% of
>>> your sales go to the OEMs, worrying about whether this one guy can
>>> afford to upgrade his disk doesn't really make sense. Especially since
>>> if you can't afford a $50 disk, you can't afford a $200 OS. :-)
>>
>> That's certainly true.  But chances are if you bought the machine,
>> Windows was included.
> 
> That's kind of my point exactly. :-)

Then we agree there.

>> is kinda disingenuous.
> 
> I don't know "disingenuous" is the word I'd use, but sure. There are
> benefits to having one entity saying "here, it's solved, do it this
> way." There are problems with that too, when you want to do it a
> different way.

Thing is, if the best program to accomplish a task on Windows didn't 
follow the Windows UI standards, you'd have the same issue with regards 
to usability.

>>>> upgraded to each incremental pre-release alpha, beta, and release
>>>> candidate on several of their internal servers.
>>>
>>> I can imagine that would screw stuff up. Most people don't design
>>> upgrades to deal with every intermediate release of the software.
>>
>> The guys at Microsoft I talked to (this was back in 2002/2003) said it
>> was a complete nightmare.
> 
> Sure. But "the guy who installs every pre-release version over top of
> the previous pre-release version" isn't the target audience. It's much
> more efficient to design an upgrade to replace the previous production
> system than to design an upgrade to replace every previous version of
> every unreleased upgrade.

Yes, agreed.  I was pointing out a worst case scenario for upgrading 
Windows, nothing more.

>> It is perhaps more common in Linux than it should be, though.
> 
> I'm saying it's because it hurts Linux less. You don't actually lose
> sales due to having your software pull in too many prerequisites. As
> opposed to (for example) having to distribute on a DVD rather than a CD
> if you are close to the edge. (Of course, much more worrisome with
> downloads or with floppies or other low-capacity media.)

Sure.  But there are ways of dealing with that, too.  Most computers have 
USB ports these days, so a USB flash drive can be used (in fact, I did my 
upgrade from oS 11.4 to 12.1 beta 1 using a flash drive.)

Jim

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On 09/10/2011 01:57 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 01:44:45 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>
>>>> Plus, installing Windows isn't a 4GB download.
>>>
>>> Installing Windows + applications is a lot more than 4 GB.  With the
>>> caching done on my Win7 VM, it sure seems to have downloaded 4+ GB of
>>> updates since installed, too.
>>
>> Seriously?
>>
>> The Windows XP CD holds less than 650 MB of data. (It's a CD.) Service
>> Pack 3 is only a few hundred MB, last I checked. Most individual updates
>> are a few KB to maybe a dozen MB. I would be /greatly/ surprised if you
>> need to download more than 1 GB.
>
> Oh, so you want to compare a modern Linux distribution against Windows
> from 10-ish years ago?  *Really*?

I'm comparing Linux against the Windows release that most people are 
currently using.

>> Applications? Well, yeah, that could be arbitrarily large, depending on
>> what applications you want...
>
> Precisely.  That 4 GB DVD has loads of applications on it.

Linux comes with a hell of a lot more applications than Windows does. 
This is a good thing.

It's still frustrating that I have to download multiple GB of data for 
libraries that I'm not actually going to use, just because the package 
dependency system isn't a little more fine-grained.

>>> You have a Windows machine, do you not?
>>
>> Not in the same building, no.
>
> Those who want to will find a way.  Those who want to just complain will
> give up without even trying.

Yes. Because spending a week trying to fix something it *totally* the 
same as just giving up and complaining about it. Oh, wait...

>>> Your problem is a lack of knowledge.  That can be corrected.  If you go
>>> into using Linux thinking it's going to be exactly like Windows, you're
>>> doomed to fail before you even boot the machine.
>>>
>>> Newsflash:  Linux is NOT Windows.  It doesn't work like Windows.  It
>>> doesn't feel like Windows.  Why?  BECAUSE IT ISN'T FREAKING WINDOWS!!!
>>
>> And, uh, what do you base this assertion on?
>
> I base it on the fact that LINUX != WINDOWS.

As you're probably aware, that isn't the statement I was querying.

>> You make it sound like I used Linux for five minutes, couldn't work it,
>> and gave up. That's not what happened at all!
>
> Did you ask any questions?  Or did you never, ever get to a Windows
> machine where you could ask questions?
>
> If you want to *learn*, you ask questions.  You know this, because you're
> moderately inquisitive about lots of different topics.  But somehow it's
> absolutely impossible for you to ask for a little help sorting out a
> Linux issue.  Far easier to just say "Linux suxxors the biggest donkey
> balls" than to go to a Linux forum and ask for a little assistance!

Again, I didn't say Linux sucks. I said one specific aspect of it sucks.

>>> Software isn't perfect.  No matter which platform it is, it isn't going
>>> to be perfect.
>>
>> Funny, I could have sworn Mac OS was perfect...
>
> Only those who haven't used it say that.  Oh, wait, you haven't used it
> (by your own admission).

Sarcasm doesn't work via text, apparently...

>> I can work Linux. I can usually make it do what I want it to do. I
>> pointed out one specific issue: installing stuff tends to be a
>> dependency nightmare. Which is true. I don't see how that makes me an
>> idiot.
>
> It doesn't.  Not asking for help when you need it?  Yeah, *that's* not
> too bright.  Then using that experience to say "this sucks" - really not
> that useful.

Now, to me, if the only way to make a system work is to find a 
super-expert to explain it, then it's not a very good system. If only 
the distribution developers themselves have enough insider knowledge to 
figure out how to work the package manager, then it's not a terribly 
good system. Just, you know, my opinion. Feel free to disagree...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 02:06:59 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>>>>> Now how do you /encrypt/ that?
>>>>
>>>> It's RDP.  It's already *encrypted*.
>>>
>>> Yeah, right. I'll believe it when I see it.
>>
>> I use it for what I work on.  The connection is encrypted.  RDP ain't
>> VNC (which actually *isn't* encrypted).
>>
>> When I connect to the Windows Server 2008 box for the classes I'm
>> working on, I get a certificate validation request.
>>
>> That sure as hell seems to be an encrypted connection.
> 
> So, just because it does strong authentication, you think that means the
> actual data is encrypted?

It's actually a certificate verification message, not a 'strong 
authentication' message.  It's asking about an SSL certificate that's 
used to encrypt the entire communications channel.

You know, like actual security.

Don't believe me?  Fine, I'll do a wireshark trace on it.

Nope, 1200 packets, nothing in the clear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_Desktop_Protocol

"128-bit encryption, using the RC4 encryption algorithm, as of Version 6.
[15] Older implementations suffer from a man-in-the-middle vulnerability, 
which can allow an attacker to decrypt the encrypted streams by recording 
the encryption key as it is transmitted.[16]"

(Under "Features").

Nope, I guess you're right.  Adding 128-bit encryption isn't security.

"Support for Transport Layer Security (TLS) 1.0 on both server and client 
ends (set as default)."

I guess TLS also isn't security.  (That's as of version 6, released in 
2006).

Clearly I don't have a clue what I'm talking about.  RDP just uses 128-
bit encryption and has TLS available for full connection encryption.

> Given how weak the password challenge/response protocol in Windows is,
> I'd be happier tunnelling via SSH or something. You know, if I could
> actually find an SSH *server* for Windows... (Then I wouldn't need any
> extra hardware at all.)

You need to read more about the newer versions of RDP, I reckon.  

Oh, and I pointed you at an SSH server for Windows.  It comes with Cygwin.

Jim

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On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 02:15:37 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

> On 09/10/2011 01:57 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Sun, 09 Oct 2011 01:44:45 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>
>>>>> Plus, installing Windows isn't a 4GB download.
>>>>
>>>> Installing Windows + applications is a lot more than 4 GB.  With the
>>>> caching done on my Win7 VM, it sure seems to have downloaded 4+ GB of
>>>> updates since installed, too.
>>>
>>> Seriously?
>>>
>>> The Windows XP CD holds less than 650 MB of data. (It's a CD.) Service
>>> Pack 3 is only a few hundred MB, last I checked. Most individual
>>> updates are a few KB to maybe a dozen MB. I would be /greatly/
>>> surprised if you need to download more than 1 GB.
>>
>> Oh, so you want to compare a modern Linux distribution against Windows
>> from 10-ish years ago?  *Really*?
> 
> I'm comparing Linux against the Windows release that most people are
> currently using.

A more appropriate comparison is latest against latest.

You want to compare distribution size for modern against what Microsoft 
shipped 10 years ago, you're comparing apples and radioactive asteroids 
orbiting with Charon.

Linux from 10 years ago, features compared against Windows from 10 years 
ago?  No comparison, Linux was in its infancy.  Stuff *was* actually 
difficult to do, and you did have to have expertise.

>>> Applications? Well, yeah, that could be arbitrarily large, depending
>>> on what applications you want...
>>
>> Precisely.  That 4 GB DVD has loads of applications on it.
> 
> Linux comes with a hell of a lot more applications than Windows does.
> This is a good thing.

Yes, it is.

> It's still frustrating that I have to download multiple GB of data for
> libraries that I'm not actually going to use, just because the package
> dependency system isn't a little more fine-grained.

You don't know that you're not going to use them.

If you want something more specialized, you can do a custom roll-your-own 
with SUSE Studio.  No need to download anything you don't want, because 
you build the distribution on a remote system using a web browser, test 
it, and then download it.

>>>> You have a Windows machine, do you not?
>>>
>>> Not in the same building, no.
>>
>> Those who want to will find a way.  Those who want to just complain
>> will give up without even trying.
> 
> Yes. Because spending a week trying to fix something it *totally* the
> same as just giving up and complaining about it. Oh, wait...

You spent a week trying to fix something that had you asked a question in 
an online forum, you probably could've gotten an answer for in a day or 
two.

And then you complained that you couldn't figure it out.

Yeah, ultimately, you gave up without asking for help.  If you'd asked 
for help, someone probably would've been able to help you.

>>> You make it sound like I used Linux for five minutes, couldn't work
>>> it, and gave up. That's not what happened at all!
>>
>> Did you ask any questions?  Or did you never, ever get to a Windows
>> machine where you could ask questions?
>>
>> If you want to *learn*, you ask questions.  You know this, because
>> you're moderately inquisitive about lots of different topics.  But
>> somehow it's absolutely impossible for you to ask for a little help
>> sorting out a Linux issue.  Far easier to just say "Linux suxxors the
>> biggest donkey balls" than to go to a Linux forum and ask for a little
>> assistance!
> 
> Again, I didn't say Linux sucks. I said one specific aspect of it sucks.

An aspect you didn't ask any questions about, but beat your head against 
the desk for a week without asking for help.

>>>> Software isn't perfect.  No matter which platform it is, it isn't
>>>> going to be perfect.
>>>
>>> Funny, I could have sworn Mac OS was perfect...
>>
>> Only those who haven't used it say that.  Oh, wait, you haven't used it
>> (by your own admission).
> 
> Sarcasm doesn't work via text, apparently...

Apparently not. ;)

>>> I can work Linux. I can usually make it do what I want it to do. I
>>> pointed out one specific issue: installing stuff tends to be a
>>> dependency nightmare. Which is true. I don't see how that makes me an
>>> idiot.
>>
>> It doesn't.  Not asking for help when you need it?  Yeah, *that's* not
>> too bright.  Then using that experience to say "this sucks" - really
>> not that useful.
> 
> Now, to me, if the only way to make a system work is to find a
> super-expert to explain it, then it's not a very good system. If only
> the distribution developers themselves have enough insider knowledge to
> figure out how to work the package manager, then it's not a terribly
> good system. Just, you know, my opinion. Feel free to disagree...

You don't need a super expert to explain it.  You need someone with more 
knowledge than you have to explain it.  Plenty of normal everyday non-
technical end users manage to use it without problems.

And those who don't understand it who ask questions quickly learn tips 
and tricks that actually, you know, make it usable.  Just like learning 
how to drive a stick shift - it can be learned, but it's easier to learn 
(and is less likely to cost you a new transmission) if you have someone 
who knows how to properly engage the clutch teach you.

I sure as hell am not a package developer or someone with "insider 
knowledge" (how does that even apply in an open source model?) about the 
supposed special incantations.

Again, if you want Windows, use Windows.  You know Linux isn't the same 
as Windows.

Jim

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On 10/8/2011 14:28, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Depends on the filesystem in question.  I think the new upcomer 'btrfs'
> is supposed to be transactional.

True. I heard recently that one is coming out for Linux. Now, how many 
programs will actually depend on it? And will it be a half-solution like 
disk snapshots are in Linux? :-)

>>> And I've yet to see anything more effective than a binary blob as a
>>> file.
>>
>> I'm curious what this sentence is supposed to mean. Binary blobs are the
>> lowest common denominator, but almost no files actually store a binary
>> blob.
>
> All files are binary blobs.  Some have restricted character sets, but
> when it comes down to it, a file is nothing more than a collection of
> bytes.

Nope. All files are represented as binary blobs, at least in Linux and 
Windows. Name me three types of files that don't have recognizable records 
in them.

Lots of mainframes had much more sophisticated file systems. PR1ME had SQL 
tables as their basic file system entity. The fact you've never seen an OS 
that has a better file system doesn't mean they don't exist.

And, indeed, files in Linux and Windows are *not* represented the way they 
are on disk. Both represent files as arrays of bytes with a length accurate 
to the byte. But there's also ACLs, alternate streams (under Windows), 
directories, etc etc etc. If you want to see a language and OS that 
represents files the way they really are, look at FORTH, which represents 
disks as arrays of blocks, and it's up to you to decide which files go with 
which blocks. Or CP/M, the progenitor of our so-wonderful ^Z-is-end-of-file 
custom for text files.

Memory is a flat array of bytes too. That doesn't mean a language with 
hashtables built in isn't useful.

(Sorry. You touched a peeve there. ;-)

> Well, it's more reliable with users who don't have the education on how
> to restart the service rather than rebooting the system.

It also assumes that packages which rely on that updated library declare 
that they do, and that the package tells you how to restart the service. If 
you update something in glibc, does Linux know that the apache service will 
run something different?

> It's a matter of design elegance in my book.  Yes, it doesn't really
> matter if the system reboots a hundred times during the installation.
> Well, except that I'm used to dealing with a single reboot on OS
> installs, so each time the system reboots, I stop what I'm working on
> because I think it's done, and it turns out it's not.

You know, part of it is the fact that Windows takes better advantage of lots 
of hardware (in the sense that Windows device drivers written by the 
hardware vendor tend to know more about the hardware). Sometimes hardware is 
designed that you can only detect some bits immediately after a reset, so 
rebooting is required to select the right driver out of many.

And, honestly, I don't think Windows (Vista) rebooted more than once during 
the last install I did either.

> But Windows has never been good at telling the user how long
> something's going to take

Very true.  Indeed, it bugs me that'll show a progress bar progressing even 
if you're copying over the network and you just pulled out the cable or 
something.  No, really, it's not progressing. Stop flying pages from one 
folder to the next. You've gotten reliable enough that things can break 
without taking down the system to the point where GIF animations stop 
animating just because the network cable is unplugged.

 > (to the point that I guess in Win 8, they're
> going to stop trying to predict things like how long a multiple file copy
> is going to take to complete).

Heh.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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