On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:19:02 +0100, Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>
> IME, with mesh moddelling *nothing* is trivial or easy. (Well, except  
> selecting "torus" and then "create mesh". That's trivial.) Every mesh  
> editor I've ever seen makes it utterly painful to achieve even the most  
> seemingly simple task.

You should watch this:
http://www.blendercookie.com/2009/08/28/modeling-a-praying-mantis/



-- 
FE

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>> IME, with mesh moddelling *nothing* is trivial or easy. (Well, except 
>> selecting "torus" and then "create mesh". That's trivial.) Every mesh 
>> editor I've ever seen makes it utterly painful to achieve even the 
>> most seemingly simple task.
> 
> You should watch this:
> http://www.blendercookie.com/2009/08/28/modeling-a-praying-mantis/

Maybe when I get home. I apparently don't have whatever plugin is 
required currently installed...

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Invisible wrote:
>> Clearly you have not actually used any half-decent modeling software.
> 
> I don't know - what counts as "half-decent"?
> 
> Back in the Amiga days, AmigaFormat gave away several coverdisks
> featuring demo versions of what were supposedly "cutting-edge" 3D
> applications - Expert 4D Jr, Imagine 3D, Real 3D, Cinema 4D, etc. Hell,
> I even once borrowed an illegal copy of 3D Studio Max.

Are you seriously implying Amiga modelers could be called "half-decent" now?

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Nicolas Alvarez wrote:

> Are you seriously implying Amiga modelers could be called "half-decent" now?

Are you seriously implying that triangles have fundamentally changed 
somehow?

Last time I checked, the triangles used by the ancient Greeks were 
pretty similar if not identical to the ones used today.

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> Are you nuts? I count at least 49 points in the curve, not 16. There's no 
> way you can place almost 50 points in 3D space with such perfection. 
> Placing just six points in a 2D circle is almost impossibly difficult, so 
> 50 is clearly well beyond possibility.

> I have no idea what you're talking about, but OK.

> You can extrude a non-planar shape?

> Fair enough.

> Well, I guess that would explain that. (Although the belt still needs to 
> be *larger* than the waist. Maybe just scaled a little?)

> Then you have managed to create something in 2 minutes which is 
> dramatically more complex than any mesh object I have ever created in my 
> entire life with any 3D product, ever.

Maybe you should download Blender and a follow a few tutorials - it's clear 
from the things you've said you have no idea what is easily doable in even 
free 3D modellers.

eg:

http://www.blendernation.com/tutorials/blender-3d-beginner-tutorial-dolphin/

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> Are you seriously implying that triangles have fundamentally changed 
> somehow?
>
> Last time I checked, the triangles used by the ancient Greeks were pretty 
> similar if not identical to the ones used today.

You clearly have no idea of the sort of tools that are available in mesh 
editors.

Please don't assume they don't exist because you don't know about them.

If you can think of someway that would speed-up mesh editing (eg extruding 
multiple non-planar surfaces, or scaling a group of vertices independently 
of the rest of the mesh, or selecting a "ring" of vertices/edges 
automatically), then it probably exists already.  Other people have thought 
about this quite a lot already.

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>> You should watch this:
>> http://www.blendercookie.com/2009/08/28/modeling-a-praying-mantis/
> 
> Maybe when I get home. I apparently don't have whatever plugin is 
> required currently installed...

Actually, loading this with IE instead of Firefox seems to make it play. 
(Although obviously I still have no sound.)

After spending almost an hour watching this, it's clear that a hell of a 
lot of work went into it. It's also clear that you could never, ever do 
something like this just by moving verticies one at a time. Somehow this 
guy manages to make Blender move multiple points simultaneously, and 
even more them in some pretty complex ways.

On the other hand, if you left me in a room with Blender for 6 years, I 
suspect I *still* couldn't make that God-damned banana look right... :-/

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>> Then you have managed to create something in 2 minutes which is 
>> dramatically more complex than any mesh object I have ever created in 
>> my entire life with any 3D product, ever.
> 
> Maybe you should download Blender and a follow a few tutorials - it's 
> clear from the things you've said you have no idea what is easily doable 
> in even free 3D modellers.

Well, now that I have VMware, I thought I might do that, just for a giggle.

So far I can't figure out how to even change the 3D view. :-|

Clearly I'm going to have to sit down and do a whole crapload of reading 
before I can start doing anything interesting with Blender. (Quite apart 
from the intractibility of 3D modelling, the UI itself seems to behave 
in a number of surprising ways - which probably take a while to get used 
to.)

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Invisible escreveu:
> IME, with mesh moddelling *nothing* is trivial or easy. (Well, except 
> selecting "torus" and then "create mesh". That's trivial.) Every mesh 
> editor I've ever seen makes it utterly painful to achieve even the most 
> seemingly simple task.

meh, I won't bother trying to cram anything into that skull of yours 
this time.  It's clearly useless to keep telling about edge loops, 
extrusions and axis locking and showing images produced this way rather 
than manually moving millions of vertex as you're used to.

-- 
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9

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scott wrote:

> You clearly have no idea of the sort of tools that are available in mesh 
> editors.
> 
> Please don't assume they don't exist because you don't know about them.

I guess it's similar to the way that tools like Photoshop or The GIMP as 
supposed to be these all-powerful imagine manipulation tools, yet they 
don't seem to "do" very much.

> If you can think of someway that would speed-up mesh editing 
> then it probably exists already.  Other 
> people have thought about this quite a lot already.

Has somebody invented a way of placing points in 3D space even though 
you only have a 2D edit area yet?

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On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 17:00:08 +0000, Invisible wrote:

> I guess it's similar to the way that tools like Photoshop or The GIMP as
> supposed to be these all-powerful imagine manipulation tools, yet they
> don't seem to "do" very much.

You need to stop conflating "they don't seem to 'do' very much" with "I 
don't know how to make them do complex operations".  These two statements 
are not equivalent.

Jim

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On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:43:12 +0000, Invisible wrote:

> So far I can't figure out how to even change the 3D view. :-|

Clearly it's impossible, then. <scnr>

Jim

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Invisible escreveu:
> Clearly I'm going to have to sit down and do a whole crapload of reading 
> before I can start doing anything interesting with Blender.

here's some quick tips:
ctrl+x - starts a new scene from scratch
esc - cancels things out
space - calls the main menu
right mouse button click (RMB) - selects
left mouse button click (LMB) - changes location of 3D cursor
a - selects all or none
s - scale
r - rotate
g - grab an object so you may move it around
c - center scene

navigating through 3D space:
numeric keyboard:
1 - front view
7 - top view
3 - side view
use together with shift to get to the other sides
del/, - focus on selected object

with the mouse:
alt+LMB - rotate the scene around by moving the mouse
alt+shift+LMB - grab the scene around by moving the mouse
(under X in Linux you may need to add the "Windows" button to the 
configuration above)
mouse wheel - zoom

tab - changes between normal object mode, where you place and manipulate 
objects (primitives), and mesh editing mode where you

now, when you are in mesh edit mode, to edit, say, the default cube:
ctrl+tab - changes between vertice, edge or face mode


now, here's a first lesson to you:

1) ctrl+x to create a new scene

2) cube is already selected so tab to enter mesh edit mode

3) input this:  s (scale) y (restricted to y axis) then move the mouse 
until its reasonably thin in y axis

4) a to deselect all

5) ctrl+tab and select face mode

6) ctrl+space and select "Enable/Disable" so it doesn't get in the way

7) select the right face  (you may zoom in a bit to make it clearer)

8) alt+shift(+Windows)+LMB and drag the cube to the left corner of the 
screen

9) ok, right face selected all you do now is extrude it in the xy plane 
with ctrl+LMB clicks.

You may trace it along funky paths in the xy plane (as default view is 
top view in the z axis) as long as the steps are about same length as 
the original cube.

now:

10) tab to exit mesh edit mode

11) F9 -> Modifiers panel down there -> Add Modifier -> Level 3

12) In the Link and Materials panel to the left, click Set Smooth down there

13) in the numeric numeric keypad, hit 5 to enter perspective mode (5 
again to go back to orthographic)

14) drag your scene around with alt+shift+LMB, zoom with mouse wheel and 
rotate with alt+shift+LMB to get the "belt" centered on screen

15) once you're satisfied with it, hit ctrl+alt+0 to get the camera set 
in this position

16) F8 -> World ajust the default black blue sky to a color of your liking

17) in the panel just next to it, click on the Amb Occ tab and turn on 
Ambient Occlusion (default settings ok)

18) hit F12 to render with default settings

if you're curious how to manage that mesh from now on, here's the tip:
1) select the belt with RMB and go back to edit mode with tab
2) a until everything deselected
3) ctrl+tab to select edge mode
4) alt+RMB in one of the top edges to select a whole edge loop

edge loops, extrusions, loop cuts... that's how you manage complexity.

There's so much more to tell, but you'd be overwhelmed this way.  anyway:

F6 goes to the material panels.  ctrl+e gives you the very useful edge 
loop tools.  In mesh edit mode, e extrudes and ctrl+r loop cuts (mouse 
wheel or numeric argument for number of cuts while in preview). 
Sometimes numbers can be used with some commands, like s+shift+y+5 to 
scale 5 times in the xz plane (shift+y).

-- 
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9

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On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 17:39:53 +0100, Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>
> After spending almost an hour watching this,

Eh... are you not supposed to be working?



-- 
FE

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On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 17:43:12 +0100, Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>
> Well, now that I have VMware, I thought I might do that, just for a  
> giggle.

Why would you need VMware to run Blender?


> Clearly I'm going to have to sit down and do a whole crapload of reading  
> before I can start doing anything interesting with Blender.

http://www.blender.org/education-help/tutorials/
http://www.blender.org/education-help/video-tutorials/
http://blenderunderground.com/video-tutorials/

The one with the mantis is also good, at least if you have sound.

One thing you need to watch out for when going through Blender tutorials  
is that they were mostly made with older versions of Blender. The  
interface seems to change in peculiar ways even between minor version  
bumps, so keyboard shortcuts and such are sometimes different from what a  
tutorial claims.



-- 
FE

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errata:

read
11) F9 -> Modifiers panel down there -> Add Modifier -> Level 3
as
11) F9 -> Modifiers panel down there -> Add Modifier -> Subsurf -> Level 3

nemesis escreveu:
> Invisible escreveu:
>> Clearly I'm going to have to sit down and do a whole crapload of 
>> reading before I can start doing anything interesting with Blender.
> 
> here's some quick tips:
> ctrl+x - starts a new scene from scratch
> esc - cancels things out
> space - calls the main menu
> right mouse button click (RMB) - selects
> left mouse button click (LMB) - changes location of 3D cursor
> a - selects all or none
> s - scale
> r - rotate
> g - grab an object so you may move it around
> c - center scene
> 
> navigating through 3D space:
> numeric keyboard:
> 1 - front view
> 7 - top view
> 3 - side view
> use together with shift to get to the other sides
> del/, - focus on selected object
> 
> with the mouse:
> alt+LMB - rotate the scene around by moving the mouse
> alt+shift+LMB - grab the scene around by moving the mouse
> (under X in Linux you may need to add the "Windows" button to the 
> configuration above)
> mouse wheel - zoom
> 
> tab - changes between normal object mode, where you place and manipulate 
> objects (primitives), and mesh editing mode where you
> 
> now, when you are in mesh edit mode, to edit, say, the default cube:
> ctrl+tab - changes between vertice, edge or face mode
> 
> 
> now, here's a first lesson to you:
> 
> 1) ctrl+x to create a new scene
> 
> 2) cube is already selected so tab to enter mesh edit mode
> 
> 3) input this:  s (scale) y (restricted to y axis) then move the mouse 
> until its reasonably thin in y axis
> 
> 4) a to deselect all
> 
> 5) ctrl+tab and select face mode
> 
> 6) ctrl+space and select "Enable/Disable" so it doesn't get in the way
> 
> 7) select the right face  (you may zoom in a bit to make it clearer)
> 
> 8) alt+shift(+Windows)+LMB and drag the cube to the left corner of the 
> screen
> 
> 9) ok, right face selected all you do now is extrude it in the xy plane 
> with ctrl+LMB clicks.
> 
> You may trace it along funky paths in the xy plane (as default view is 
> top view in the z axis) as long as the steps are about same length as 
> the original cube.
> 
> now:
> 
> 10) tab to exit mesh edit mode
> 
> 11) F9 -> Modifiers panel down there -> Add Modifier -> Level 3
> 
> 12) In the Link and Materials panel to the left, click Set Smooth down 
> there
> 
> 13) in the numeric numeric keypad, hit 5 to enter perspective mode (5 
> again to go back to orthographic)
> 
> 14) drag your scene around with alt+shift+LMB, zoom with mouse wheel and 
> rotate with alt+shift+LMB to get the "belt" centered on screen
> 
> 15) once you're satisfied with it, hit ctrl+alt+0 to get the camera set 
> in this position
> 
> 16) F8 -> World ajust the default black blue sky to a color of your liking
> 
> 17) in the panel just next to it, click on the Amb Occ tab and turn on 
> Ambient Occlusion (default settings ok)
> 
> 18) hit F12 to render with default settings
> 
> if you're curious how to manage that mesh from now on, here's the tip:
> 1) select the belt with RMB and go back to edit mode with tab
> 2) a until everything deselected
> 3) ctrl+tab to select edge mode
> 4) alt+RMB in one of the top edges to select a whole edge loop
> 
> edge loops, extrusions, loop cuts... that's how you manage complexity.
> 
> There's so much more to tell, but you'd be overwhelmed this way.  anyway:
> 
> F6 goes to the material panels.  ctrl+e gives you the very useful edge 
> loop tools.  In mesh edit mode, e extrudes and ctrl+r loop cuts (mouse 
> wheel or numeric argument for number of cuts while in preview). 
> Sometimes numbers can be used with some commands, like s+shift+y+5 to 
> scale 5 times in the xz plane (shift+y).
> 


-- 
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9

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Warp wrote:
> andrel <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
>> More importantly, what did we learn from this and why did you, warp, 
>> post this?
> 
>   Does everything have to have a reason behind it? Can't things be done just
> for the fun of it?
> 


that's what the mascot does all of the time - yet he gets chastized from 
time to time ;-)

Post a reply to this message

Tom Austin <taustin> wrote:
> Warp wrote:
> > andrel <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
> >> More importantly, what did we learn from this and why did you, warp, 
> >> post this?
> > 
> >   Does everything have to have a reason behind it? Can't things be done just
> > for the fun of it?

> that's what the mascot does all of the time - yet he gets chastized from 
> time to time ;-)

  He presents puzzles for people to think about?

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:21:29 -0500, Warp wrote:

>> that's what the mascot does all of the time - yet he gets chastized
>> from time to time ;-)
> 
>   He presents puzzles for people to think about?

Sure, just many of them have to do with his personal life. ;-)

Jim

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nemesis wrote:
> right mouse button click (RMB) - selects
> left mouse button click (LMB) - changes location of 3D cursor

And I think that there pretty much sums up why people think Blender's 
interface sucks. :-)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Human nature dictates that toothpaste tubes spend
   much longer being almost empty than almost full.

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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:21:29 -0500, Warp wrote:

> >> that's what the mascot does all of the time - yet he gets chastized
> >> from time to time ;-)
> > 
> >   He presents puzzles for people to think about?

> Sure, just many of them have to do with his personal life. ;-)

  Like this? "you sit down and your trousers are no longer able to contain
the mass of your thighs. o_O"

  Maybe I *don't* want to think about it...

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:46:35 -0500, Warp wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:21:29 -0500, Warp wrote:
> 
>> >> that's what the mascot does all of the time - yet he gets chastized
>> >> from time to time ;-)
>> > 
>> >   He presents puzzles for people to think about?
> 
>> Sure, just many of them have to do with his personal life. ;-)
> 
>   Like this? "you sit down and your trousers are no longer able to
>   contain
> the mass of your thighs. o_O"

Sure, why not?  It's not a difficult puzzle (need larger trousers).

>   Maybe I *don't* want to think about it...

That's your choice. ;-)

Jim

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>> After spending almost an hour watching this,
> 
> Eh... are you not supposed to be working?

Oh, uh, yeah, probably...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Darren New escreveu:
> nemesis wrote:
>> right mouse button click (RMB) - selects
>> left mouse button click (LMB) - changes location of 3D cursor
> 
> And I think that there pretty much sums up why people think Blender's 
> interface sucks. :-)

Heard about that before.  No big deal, though.

-- 
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9

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>> So far I can't figure out how to even change the 3D view. :-|
> 
> Clearly it's impossible, then. <scnr>

I'd be surprised if that's the case. (Although it might be; maybe you 
have to change mode or something if you want other 3D views? It's 
plausible.)

Actually, it turns out you just have to use the middle... mouse... 
button... Oh dear.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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>> right mouse button click (RMB) - selects
>> left mouse button click (LMB) - changes location of 3D cursor
> 
> And I think that there pretty much sums up why people think Blender's 
> interface sucks. :-)

What do you mean "people think"?

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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>> Well, now that I have VMware, I thought I might do that, just for a 
>> giggle.
> 
> Why would you need VMware to run Blender?

Because using VMware, I can install whatever I want without having to 
fill out a form recording what I installed, the date I installed it, the 
exact product version, and the reason for installing it.

Because it's only a VM, I'm not "really" installing Blender, so I don't 
have to record it.

>> Clearly I'm going to have to sit down and do a whole crapload of 
>> reading before I can start doing anything interesting with Blender.
> 
> http://www.blender.org/education-help/tutorials/
> http://www.blender.org/education-help/video-tutorials/
> http://blenderunderground.com/video-tutorials/
> 
> The one with the mantis is also good, at least if you have sound.

I watched it, but without sound. I doubt I'd understand it even *with* 
sound. I need to first spend some time figuring out Blender's 
abstractions, basic UI conventions, workflow, etc. before I can even 
*think* about anything more complex than rendering an equilateral triangle.

> One thing you need to watch out for when going through Blender tutorials 
> is that they were mostly made with older versions of Blender. The 
> interface seems to change in peculiar ways even between minor version 
> bumps, so keyboard shortcuts and such are sometimes different from what 
> a tutorial claims.

Oh, that's nice. So, it's like living in a house where the architects 
constantly move stuff around? :-}

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Orchid XP v8 escreveu:
>>> right mouse button click (RMB) - selects
>>> left mouse button click (LMB) - changes location of 3D cursor
>>
>> And I think that there pretty much sums up why people think Blender's 
>> interface sucks. :-)
> 
> What do you mean "people think"?

was any of it any helpful at all?  Or should I just put you on a 
killfile for insistent, unreasonable dumb behaviour?

-- 
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9

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nemesis wrote:

> was any of it any helpful at all?

Ask me *after* I have Blender installed on this box...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:29:26 +0000, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>>> So far I can't figure out how to even change the 3D view. :-|
>> 
>> Clearly it's impossible, then. <scnr>
> 
> I'd be surprised if that's the case. (Although it might be; maybe you
> have to change mode or something if you want other 3D views? It's
> plausible.)
> 
> Actually, it turns out you just have to use the middle... mouse...
> button... Oh dear.

I was just poking a little fun at you (which you've probably figured out 
anyways), because you have a penchant for saying "that's impossible" when 
it's just something you don't know about or how to do. ;-)

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:

> You need to stop conflating "they don't seem to 'do' very much" with "I 
> don't know how to make them do complex operations".  These two statements 
> are not equivalent.

Well, I don't know. Something like DPaint, you open it up and there's a 
trillion options staring right at you. And when you start to dig into 
it, there's even more stuff below the surface. You could spend years 
just reading the user manual. (It comes with a paper user manual, by the 
way.)

Open the GIMP, and there doesn't seem to be much there. There's, like, a 
million ways to select an image region, but once you selected it, all 
you can do to it is clone it or apply a filter to it. Big deal.

Now surely there's more to it than that (who the hell would bother 
developing such a big piece of software just to apply an emboss 
effect?), but it's not very apparent from the UI. It appears you have to 
somehow combine the features in highly non-obvious ways to make it do 
anything interesting.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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>>>> So far I can't figure out how to even change the 3D view. :-|
>>> Clearly it's impossible, then. <scnr>
>> I'd be surprised if that's the case. (Although it might be; maybe you
>> have to change mode or something if you want other 3D views? It's
>> plausible.)
>>
>> Actually, it turns out you just have to use the middle... mouse...
>> button... Oh dear.
> 
> I was just poking a little fun at you (which you've probably figured out 
> anyways), because you have a penchant for saying "that's impossible" when 
> it's just something you don't know about or how to do. ;-)

In this case, I refuse to believe that even a Python programmer would be 
stupid enough to write a huge 3D program that can't, you know, display 
things in 3D.

And I was right. Unfortunately, Python programmers *are* apparently 
stupid enough to think that everybody has a 3-button mouse... >_<

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Orchid XP v8 escreveu:
> nemesis wrote:
> 
>> was any of it any helpful at all?
> 
> Ask me *after* I have Blender installed on this box...

I thought you said you didn't know how to change Blender's 3D view.

-- 
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9

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Orchid XP v8 escreveu:
> And I was right. Unfortunately, Python programmers *are* apparently 
> stupid enough to think that everybody has a 3-button mouse... >_<

They are not stupid, nor they are responsible for most of Blender's 3D 
infrastructure.

In any case, navigating through 3D space in Blender is accomplished by 
many means, including with the numeric keypad keys and in combination of 
that and ctrl, alt and company and either that plus mousebuttons.  You 
just pick your poison.

-- 
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9

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On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:41:48 +0000, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

> Open the GIMP, and there doesn't seem to be much there. There's, like, a
> million ways to select an image region, but once you selected it, all
> you can do to it is clone it or apply a filter to it. Big deal.

Kinda makes my point, though - the difference between "I don't know how" 
and "it's clearly impossible to" (applied when you really mean the first 
sentence, even if you don't know it).

> Now surely there's more to it than that (who the hell would bother
> developing such a big piece of software just to apply an emboss
> effect?), but it's not very apparent from the UI. It appears you have to
> somehow combine the features in highly non-obvious ways to make it do
> anything interesting.

= tons of flexibility once you learn how to use it.  :-)

Jim

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On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 21:33:24 +0100, Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>>  Why would you need VMware to run Blender?
>
> Because using VMware, I can install whatever I want without having to  
> fill out a form recording what I installed, the date I installed it, the  
> exact product version, and the reason for installing it.

Again: Are you not supposed to be working?



-- 
FE

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>>> was any of it any helpful at all?
>>
>> Ask me *after* I have Blender installed on this box...
> 
> I thought you said you didn't know how to change Blender's 3D view.

I had Blender installed at work, but I'm at home now and I haven't 
installed it yet.

I discovered from their tutorials that the middle mouse button (that I 
don't have) rotates the view. I'm interested to see that you can also 
use alt+LMB - that sounds a lot easier...

Also very interested to see that Ctrl+X does something completely 
unexpected and highly catastrophic. Remind me to never, ever press that 
while in Blender! o_O

(I wander if Ctrl+S means "format my HD"?)

Once I've got Blender installed here, I can try out your instructions...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:43:20 +0000, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>>>>> So far I can't figure out how to even change the 3D view. :-|
>>>> Clearly it's impossible, then. <scnr>
>>> I'd be surprised if that's the case. (Although it might be; maybe you
>>> have to change mode or something if you want other 3D views? It's
>>> plausible.)
>>>
>>> Actually, it turns out you just have to use the middle... mouse...
>>> button... Oh dear.
>> 
>> I was just poking a little fun at you (which you've probably figured
>> out anyways), because you have a penchant for saying "that's
>> impossible" when it's just something you don't know about or how to do.
>> ;-)
> 
> In this case, I refuse to believe that even a Python programmer would be
> stupid enough to write a huge 3D program that can't, you know, display
> things in 3D.
> 
> And I was right. Unfortunately, Python programmers *are* apparently
> stupid enough to think that everybody has a 3-button mouse... >_<

An assertion that's easy to prove.  Python runs on Macs.  Macs typically 
have a *1* button mouse.

The defense rests, m'lud.

Jim

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Fredrik Eriksson wrote:

> Again: Are you not supposed to be working?

Technically yes.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Orchid XP v8 escreveu:
> Also very interested to see that Ctrl+X does something completely 
> unexpected and highly catastrophic. Remind me to never, ever press that 
> while in Blender! o_O

Actually, it's quite the contrary:  when you're learning, it's best to 
start from scratch anew everytime you learn something.  Leonardo Da 
Vinci used to sketch a lot, even more than completing works.

Ctrl+X to me was one of the most useful keycombos in Blender in the 
beginning.  I wouldn't even save anything (because nothing was worth 
it), just play around and start anew when anything got wrong or if I 
thought it was enough learning for a particular technique.

It's been changed to a -- perhaps saner -- Ctrl+N(ew) in 2.5 alpha.

> (I wander if Ctrl+S means "format my HD"?)

F1 opens a previous file, F2 saves and ctrl+w writes current changes to 
the current file.  shift (or alt?) F1 lets you load objects and 
materials from a previous file into your current file.

> Once I've got Blender installed here, I can try out your instructions...

hope you may have a fair ride...

-- 
a game sig: http://tinyurl.com/d3rxz9

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nemesis escreveu:
> Orchid XP v8 escreveu:
>> Also very interested to see that Ctrl+X does something completely 
>> unexpected and highly catastrophic. Remind me to never, ever press 
>> that while in Blender! o_O
> 
> Actually, it's quite the contrary:  when you're learning, it's best to 
> start from scratch anew everytime you learn something.  Leonardo Da 
> Vinci used to sketch a lot, even more than completing works.
> 
> Ctrl+X to me was one of the most useful keycombos in Blender in the 
> beginning.  I wouldn't even save anything (because nothing was worth 
> it), just play around and start anew when anything got wrong or if I 
> thought it was enough learning for a particular technique.
> 
> It's been changed to a -- perhaps saner -- Ctrl+N(ew) in 2.5 alpha.
> 
>> (I wander if Ctrl+S means "format my HD"?)
> 
> F1 opens a previous file, F2 saves and ctrl+w writes current changes to 
> the current file.  shift (or alt?) F1 lets you load objects and 
> materials from a previous file into your current file.

yes, it's actually shift+F1 to load libs.

and ctrl+s just saves too.

>> Once I've got Blender installed here, I can try out your instructions...
> 
> hope you may have a fair ride...
> 


-- 
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>> Also very interested to see that Ctrl+X does something completely 
>> unexpected and highly catastrophic. Remind me to never, ever press 
>> that while in Blender! o_O
> 
> Actually, it's quite the contrary:  when you're learning, it's best to 
> start from scratch anew everytime you learn something.

I'll say...

> Ctrl+X to me was one of the most useful keycombos in Blender in the 
> beginning.  I wouldn't even save anything (because nothing was worth 
> it), just play around and start anew when anything got wrong or if I 
> thought it was enough learning for a particular technique.

Yeah, that sounds pretty typical. Strange choice of shortcut though.

> It's been changed to a -- perhaps saner -- Ctrl+N(ew) in 2.5 alpha.

OK.

> F1 opens a previous file, F2 saves and ctrl+w writes current changes to 
> the current file.  shift (or alt?) F1 lets you load objects and 
> materials from a previous file into your current file.

Ctrl+W usually closes the current document/application. But in Blender 
it saves? Wacky...

> hope you may have a fair ride...

Yeah...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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nemesis wrote:

> and ctrl+s just saves too.

Oh thank God... :-}

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Orchid XP v8 escreveu:
>> Ctrl+X to me was one of the most useful keycombos in Blender in the 
>> beginning.  I wouldn't even save anything (because nothing was worth 
>> it), just play around and start anew when anything got wrong or if I 
>> thought it was enough learning for a particular technique.
> 
> Yeah, that sounds pretty typical. Strange choice of shortcut though.

I take it to mean I want to cut current scene to pieces with scissors. :)

> Ctrl+W usually closes the current document/application. But in Blender 
> it saves? Wacky...

Ctrl+W(indow) doesn't quite says much to me, despite what Microsoft 
says.  Ctrl+w(rite) sounds more logical.  Not all editors follow 
Microsoft's conventions, vi comes to mind with :w :)

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How about this:

  Assume we have a rectangular grid consisting of m vertical lines and n
horizontal lines. All the vertical lines are of equal length and
arranged horizontally, at equal distances from each other. Likewise
all the horizontal lines are of equal length and arranged vertically,
at equal distances from each other. The length of the vertical lines
is the distance between the outermost horizontal lines, and
vice-versa. The two sets of lines is superimposed so that the four
outermost lines coincide at their endpoints, and thus they form a
large rectangle (with all the other lines inside it). No line goes
outside of this rectangle.

  In other words, the grid contains m x n line intersections (and
consequently there are (m-1) x (n-1) small empty rectangles inside the
grid). For example, a standard Go board has a 19 x 19 grid (19
vertical lines and 19 horizontal lines, totaling 361 intersections).

  (While the idea is quite simple, I tried to be as unambiguous as I
could above, which is why the description became somewhat lengthy.)

  Let's define the smallest possible grid to be 2 x 2 (because it's the
smallest that can be formed with lines of non-zero length).

  Such a grid forms many rectangles. A 2 x 2, rather obviously, forms
only one rectangle. However, a 3 x 2 forms 3 rectangles (the two small
rectangles and a third one, which is formed by the outermost lines). A
4 x 2 grid forms 6 rectangles (3 small rectangles, 2 medium-sized and
1 encompassing the whole grid). Likewise a 3 x 3 grid forms 9
rectangles and a 4 x 4 grid forms 36 rectangles. And so on.

  So the task is simple: Write a function f(m,n) which tells how many
rectangles can be found in an m x n grid. (Explain how you came up
with the function).

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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No, sir, wait a minute!  You can't propose a new challenge without 
providing an answer to the previous one. :D

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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> An assertion that's easy to prove.  Python runs on Macs.  Macs typically 
> have a *1* button mouse.

  Isn't that info a bit old? Does Apple even sell 1-button mice anymore?

  (Apple's mice might *look* like they have only one button, but in reality
they usually have at least four. They can be configured to work as if it had
only one button, though.)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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nemesis <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> No, sir, wait a minute!  You can't propose a new challenge without 
> providing an answer to the previous one. :D

  The correct answer has already been given several times, even in
graphical form.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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nemesis escreveu:
> Darren New escreveu:
>> nemesis wrote:
>>> right mouse button click (RMB) - selects
>>> left mouse button click (LMB) - changes location of 3D cursor
>>
>> And I think that there pretty much sums up why people think Blender's 
>> interface sucks. :-)
> 
> Heard about that before.  No big deal, though.

and in any case, if Orchid wants to change it, he just needs to grab the 
top bar and pull it down:  the configuration preferences shows up. 
There in the very first tab you have "Select with:" and the options LMB 
or RMB.

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nemesis wrote:

> navigating through 3D space:
> numeric keyboard:
> 1 - front view
> 7 - top view
> 3 - side view

This seemed like a pretty weird choice, until I noticed the position of 
these keys on the keypad.

Also... Blender seems to incorrectly assume that Z is "up" and Y is 
"back". (It should obviously be the other way around.)

> with the mouse:
> alt+LMB - rotate the scene around by moving the mouse

Well, at least it works.

> now, here's a first lesson to you:
> 
> 1) ctrl+x to create a new scene
> 
> 2) cube is already selected so tab to enter mesh edit mode
> 
> 3) input this:  s (scale) y (restricted to y axis) then move the mouse 
> until its reasonably thin in y axis

Interesting how the amount of scaling is apparently completely unrelated 
to the mouse movement... (Seems to scale the cube by about 20% of the 
distance the mouse is moved.)

> 4) a to deselect all
> 
> 5) ctrl+tab and select face mode
> 
> 6) ctrl+space and select "Enable/Disable" so it doesn't get in the way
> 
> 7) select the right face  (you may zoom in a bit to make it clearer)
> 
> 8) alt+shift(+Windows)+LMB and drag the cube to the left corner of the 
> screen
> 
> 9) ok, right face selected all you do now is extrude it in the xy plane 
> with ctrl+LMB clicks.
> 
> You may trace it along funky paths in the xy plane (as default view is 
> top view in the z axis) as long as the steps are about same length as 
> the original cube.

OK, this one took me a while to figure out. You'd think you extrude it 
by dragging the face that you want to extrude... but no. You just click 
and Blender places faces at random for you.

> now:
> 
> 10) tab to exit mesh edit mode
> 
> 11) F9 -> Modifiers panel down there -> Add Modifier -> Level 3

F9 doesn't appear to do anything. However, I did manage to find the 
command, and it did turn the tangled mess of polygons into... a rather 
liquid-looking mess of smaller polygons.

> 12) In the Link and Materials panel to the left, click Set Smooth down 
> there.

Now with fake light smoothing. (If it weren't for the 
self-intersections, it might even look like a real curved surface...)

> 13) in the numeric numeric keypad, hit 5 to enter perspective mode (5 
> again to go back to orthographic)
> 
> 14) drag your scene around with alt+shift+LMB, zoom with mouse wheel and 
> rotate with alt+shift+LMB to get the "belt" centered on screen
> 
> 15) once you're satisfied with it, hit ctrl+alt+0 to get the camera set 
> in this position
> 
> 16) F8 -> World ajust the default black blue sky to a color of your liking
> 
> 17) in the panel just next to it, click on the Amb Occ tab and turn on 
> Ambient Occlusion (default settings ok)
> 
> 18) hit F12 to render with default settings

One very, very, VERY grainy grey image...

Oh, wait, I think the light source might be on the other side... Yeah, 
OK, that looks a bit better. Still horrifyingly blocky, but at least 
with some specular hilights now.


-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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