On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 13:26:24 -0500, Warp wrote:

>   If Microsoft (and especially Steve Ballmer) stopped trolling around
>   and
> concentrated only on what they are good at, they could get a better
> reputation. But no. I think that at least with Steve Ballmer it's some
> kind of odd twisted imago reputation which he *wants* to maintain, for
> some incomprehensible reason.

For Ballmer (and Gates before him), it's all about control.  They don't 
like what they can't control, so they have to either try to control it or 
destroy it.

Jim

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On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:51:23 -0200, nemesis wrote:

> Autodesk is the Adobe of 3D software:  AutoCAD, 3DSMax, Maya and now
> they also assimilated XSI, much to the dismay of its users as the crying
> in many forums worldwide suggests...

Autodesk is *owned* by Adobe....

Jim

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nemesis wrote:
> Warp escreveu:
>> 2) Why does Microsoft care about Linux, with its... what? Less than 1% 
>> market
>> share?
> 
> I think they are more worried about enterprise Linux server installs, 
> which go beyond that puny 1% mark.  Even if the Linux is serving a 
> primarily Windows desktop network, it doesn't bode well that such 
> desktops are not trapped to proprietary Microsoft server solutions.
> 
> It means suddenly Visual Studio developers may be targetting MySQL or 
> PostgreSQL databases rather than SQL Server, for instance.  Heck, they 
> may end up even using open-source libs rather than what's in the Windows 
> API if control is too loose over them... :P

Well, the point here is, these are documents expressing worry about 
Linux "somehow" causing Windows problems, 7 years ago, when, frankly, it 
still was a pain in the ass to do some things. Now.. If you really want 
to, you can nearly hide it under a shell that "looks and acts" like XP, 
some of its desktop stuff, like compiz (assuming I spelled that right), 
makes the "innovations" available in Vista look lame, and even the gap 
between Windows and Linux software is "currently" only held by a few 
obscure WINE bugs, which effect about the same percentage of software as 
the transition from say Win 3.1 to 95 did, and the lack of Direct3D 
support. Neither of those is going to stand long. And the recent 
notebook fiasco has pretty much brought home for everyone that Windows 
was "never" intended to run on low resources at even "close" to the same 
functionality, if at all.

MS is becoming what Big Blue was in the mainframe era. Someone so 
focused on their "existing" product, that they suddenly find that the 
rug is being pulled out from under their feet, and worse, someone moved 
anything they could grab hold of to keep from falling down. Mind, I 
don't think its going to be "quite" as bad for them, since its not 
changing an entire architecture, but they still have a huge problem.

BTW, here the one about how the EU may have finally gotten so annoyed at 
IE being integrated in MS' machines that they may require new installs 
to "include" an alternative browser "standard" in all of them? Can't 
imagine that making things better for them either...

-- 
void main () {
   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models, 
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>

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Darren New wrote:
> Warp wrote:
>>   Big deal? I really think MS is just being paranoid and making a lot
>> of noise over nothing.
> 
> Maybe by making a lot of noise over Linux, they think they can distract 
> attention from Apple and Sun? :-)
> 
>>   IMO they should invest their resources on making better products
> 
> The people creating the FUD about Linux aren't the people writing the MS 
> software. :-)
> 
>> You don't get a positive image of yourself by bashing your opponents. 
>  > You do it by doing
>> a good job and offering high-quality products, and letting your products
>> speak for you.
> 
> I think MS makes good products and many people bash MS, to the point 
> where there are people around that are just as much anti-MS-fanboys as 
> there are Apple-fanboys. It's hard to say whether simply having the best 
> product is sufficient.
> 
One of the points of this article is that these are high level MS 
people, who are afraid of what Linux "could be", saying the 180 degree 
opposite of everything that every FUD campaign MS ever put out, and 
every MS connected internet shill still babbles, has declared are the 
"weaknesses" of Linux. These people are effectively admitting that its 
not just a lie, but indirectly, that they are willing to lie to you, me, 
and anyone else, to get a sale.

That is what pisses me off about MS, not the "quality" of their 
software, which frankly, is only higher quality because they have more 
experience at integrating stuff, over decades, while burying any 
competition, than some others have, and, whether you want to admit it or 
not, sometimes they miss more than they hit, their entire design is so 
unworkable they actually stated, "We can't fix this at all, we have to 
start over if you really want all the stuff you planned!", when trying 
to figure out what to do when going from XP to Vista, and things still 
break for no comprehensible reason, sometimes "while" doing something as 
"supposedly simple", as initially *correctly* detecting hardware, which 
is not a problem Linux has at all.

No, they make decent software. So do a lot of FOSS people. But good? 
Tell me that when no one has to reinstall a device driver because 
Windows, in any flavor, misidentifies the damn thing, just for a start...

-- 
void main () {
   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models, 
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>

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Jim Henderson escreveu:
> On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:51:23 -0200, nemesis wrote:
> 
>> Autodesk is the Adobe of 3D software:  AutoCAD, 3DSMax, Maya and now
>> they also assimilated XSI, much to the dismay of its users as the crying
>> in many forums worldwide suggests...
> 
> Autodesk is *owned* by Adobe....

what?  WHAAATTT??!

seriously, never heard of that before... :O

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nemesis escreveu:
> Jim Henderson escreveu:
>> On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:51:23 -0200, nemesis wrote:
>>
>>> Autodesk is the Adobe of 3D software:  AutoCAD, 3DSMax, Maya and now
>>> they also assimilated XSI, much to the dismay of its users as the crying
>>> in many forums worldwide suggests...
>>
>> Autodesk is *owned* by Adobe....
> 
> what?  WHAAATTT??!
> 
> seriously, never heard of that before... :O

oh, I see, you're actually saying Adobe PWNS Autodesk, right? ;)

May be, many more photoshop users than 3D heads out there...

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On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:09:07 -0200, nemesis wrote:

> Jim Henderson escreveu:
>> On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:51:23 -0200, nemesis wrote:
>> 
>>> Autodesk is the Adobe of 3D software:  AutoCAD, 3DSMax, Maya and now
>>> they also assimilated XSI, much to the dismay of its users as the
>>> crying in many forums worldwide suggests...
>> 
>> Autodesk is *owned* by Adobe....
> 
> what?  WHAAATTT??!
> 
> seriously, never heard of that before... :O

And I have faulty memory.  I could've sworn I heard that Adobe had 
acquired Autodesk, but it seems I was mistaken.

Still, I'll bet you're awake now. ;-)

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Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
>   Why do you think MS is so hated and eg. Apple isn't? Because Apple doesn't
> use so many glaringly dubious attack tactics and get the hatred of every
> living being on Earth.

No, I guess it's because of an instinct in man: When on the aggressive side of
the warpath, you pick *one* opponent to fight at a time, and quite perfectly
forget about the others (unless one of them poses an immediate threat), until
you have either won over him or he has escaped to safety.

And of course, the one you will pick first (and team up against with your clan)
is the biggest and most powerful of them all. If you manage to win over him, it
may be enough to impress his kin so much that they will all just surrender, and
your clan will rule the universe.

Doesn't have to be the meanest of them all. Just the most impressive and
powerful of them.

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Jim Henderson escreveu:
> On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:09:07 -0200, nemesis wrote:
> 
>> Jim Henderson escreveu:
>>> On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:51:23 -0200, nemesis wrote:
>>>
>>>> Autodesk is the Adobe of 3D software:  AutoCAD, 3DSMax, Maya and now
>>>> they also assimilated XSI, much to the dismay of its users as the
>>>> crying in many forums worldwide suggests...
>>> Autodesk is *owned* by Adobe....
>> what?  WHAAATTT??!
>>
>> seriously, never heard of that before... :O
> 
> And I have faulty memory.  I could've sworn I heard that Adobe had 
> acquired Autodesk, but it seems I was mistaken.
> 
> Still, I'll bet you're awake now. ;-)

hah!  I was awake and the coffee almost spilled through my nose when I 
read that! :P

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On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:12:33 -0200, nemesis wrote:

> nemesis escreveu:
>> Jim Henderson escreveu:
>>> On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:51:23 -0200, nemesis wrote:
>>>
>>>> Autodesk is the Adobe of 3D software:  AutoCAD, 3DSMax, Maya and now
>>>> they also assimilated XSI, much to the dismay of its users as the
>>>> crying in many forums worldwide suggests...
>>>
>>> Autodesk is *owned* by Adobe....
>> 
>> what?  WHAAATTT??!
>> 
>> seriously, never heard of that before... :O
> 
> oh, I see, you're actually saying Adobe PWNS Autodesk, right? ;)

Yeaaaah, yeah, that's what I meant. ;-)

> May be, many more photoshop users than 3D heads out there...

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nemesis escreveu:
> Jim Henderson escreveu:
>> On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:09:07 -0200, nemesis wrote:
>>
>>> Jim Henderson escreveu:
>>>> On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:51:23 -0200, nemesis wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Autodesk is the Adobe of 3D software:  AutoCAD, 3DSMax, Maya and now
>>>>> they also assimilated XSI, much to the dismay of its users as the
>>>>> crying in many forums worldwide suggests...
>>>> Autodesk is *owned* by Adobe....
>>> what?  WHAAATTT??!
>>>
>>> seriously, never heard of that before... :O
>>
>> And I have faulty memory.  I could've sworn I heard that Adobe had 
>> acquired Autodesk, but it seems I was mistaken.
>>
>> Still, I'll bet you're awake now. ;-)
> 
> hah!  I was awake and the coffee almost spilled through my nose when I 
> read that! :P

cause that would be like some superhypermegamonopoly... not that the 2 
beasts are away from it in their respective markets... :P

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On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:16:40 -0200, nemesis wrote:

> Jim Henderson escreveu:
>> On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:09:07 -0200, nemesis wrote:
>> 
>>> Jim Henderson escreveu:
>>>> On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:51:23 -0200, nemesis wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Autodesk is the Adobe of 3D software:  AutoCAD, 3DSMax, Maya and now
>>>>> they also assimilated XSI, much to the dismay of its users as the
>>>>> crying in many forums worldwide suggests...
>>>> Autodesk is *owned* by Adobe....
>>> what?  WHAAATTT??!
>>>
>>> seriously, never heard of that before... :O
>> 
>> And I have faulty memory.  I could've sworn I heard that Adobe had
>> acquired Autodesk, but it seems I was mistaken.
>> 
>> Still, I'll bet you're awake now. ;-)
> 
> hah!  I was awake and the coffee almost spilled through my nose when I
> read that! :P

LOL, I know what I was thinking about now, I was thinking about 
Autodesk's acquisition of Maya3D and that - for some reason - conflated 
itself into Adobe acquiring Autodesk.

Maybe I'm *not* awake enough yet. ;-)

Jim

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clipka escreveu:
> And of course, the one you will pick first (and team up against with your clan)
> is the biggest and most powerful of them all.

speak for yourself, dude... ;)

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Patrick Elliott <sel### [at] npgcablecom> wrote:
> MS is becoming what Big Blue was in the mainframe era. Someone so
> focused on their "existing" product, that they suddenly find that the
> rug is being pulled out from under their feet, and worse, someone moved
> anything they could grab hold of to keep from falling down. Mind, I
> don't think its going to be "quite" as bad for them, since its not
> changing an entire architecture, but they still have a huge problem.

Well, I think the article shows that MS has a chance to avoid the same fate as
Big Blue: They seem to be quite a pro-active bunch, given how much they worried
about Linux 6 years ago already.

Maybe their pro-activity is not the type everyone is hoping for, but that's a
different story.

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On 27-Jan-09 20:18, nemesis wrote:
> clipka escreveu:
>> And of course, the one you will pick first (and team up against with 
>> your clan)
>> is the biggest and most powerful of them all.
> 
> speak for yourself, dude... ;)

seconded

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On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:17:38 -0200, nemesis wrote:

> nemesis escreveu:
>> Jim Henderson escreveu:
>>> On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:09:07 -0200, nemesis wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jim Henderson escreveu:
>>>>> On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:51:23 -0200, nemesis wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Autodesk is the Adobe of 3D software:  AutoCAD, 3DSMax, Maya and
>>>>>> now they also assimilated XSI, much to the dismay of its users as
>>>>>> the crying in many forums worldwide suggests...
>>>>> Autodesk is *owned* by Adobe....
>>>> what?  WHAAATTT??!
>>>>
>>>> seriously, never heard of that before... :O
>>>
>>> And I have faulty memory.  I could've sworn I heard that Adobe had
>>> acquired Autodesk, but it seems I was mistaken.
>>>
>>> Still, I'll bet you're awake now. ;-)
>> 
>> hah!  I was awake and the coffee almost spilled through my nose when I
>> read that! :P
> 
> cause that would be like some superhypermegamonopoly... not that the 2
> beasts are away from it in their respective markets... :P

Hehehehehe, well, it could be something like Mitsubishi (or Computer 
Associates). :-)

Jim

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Warp wrote:
>   But they are getting money which would be better spent in improving
> the products.

Your products won't sell if you eliminate the entire marketing department, 
regardless how good they are.

>   Why do you think MS is so hated and eg. Apple isn't?

Because 10x the number of people use MS products as Apple products? Because 
MS *doesn't* control the whole Windows experience and people blame MS for 
the crap software put out by others?

I even hear from people bitching that Microsoft bought their company and 
they wanted to stay in control of it.  Welcome to capitalism - don't sell if 
you don't want it.

> Because Apple doesn't
> use so many glaringly dubious attack tactics and get the hatred of every
> living being on Earth.

... yet.

Or haven't you heard the complaints about iTunes DRM locking it to the iPod, 
the Apple Store being the only source of iPhone software and regulated 
capriciously by Apple, or even the bitching about how hard it was to open up 
the original Mac computers without special tools?

And speaking of FUD, have you watched any of the "Hi, I'm a PC" commercials 
lately? :-)  They're getting embarrassing.

>   If Microsoft (and especially Steve Ballmer) stopped trolling around and
> concentrated only on what they are good at, they could get a better
> reputation.

I don't think so. But we'll have to agree to disagree.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> There's OpenXchange, and another I've heard of called Zimbra, I think.

Neither is really the same thing, any more than Google Mail/Calendar/etc is.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Neither of those is going to stand long.

I see MS doing lots of new things that aren't on Linux, tho. You don't stay 
ahead by not inventing anything new.

> BTW, here the one about how the EU may have finally gotten so annoyed at 
> IE being integrated in MS' machines that they may require new installs 
> to "include" an alternative browser "standard" in all of them? Can't 
> imagine that making things better for them either...

Or, honestly, for the users or browser vendors. At this point, nobody can 
actually *sell* a browser, so I'm not sure what the point of not giving away 
a browser is, or how you decide which of the 8 or 10 popular browsers out 
there you should be including.

Sort of like phone company "competition" here - there are areas where to 
call your neighbor, you have to dial all 10 digits, instead of the usual 7 
for calls within the same city. Why? Because the mobile phone companies 
complained that mobile users had to dial 10 digits, and this was "unfair". 
Since it's impossible to actually improve that, the only way to make it fair 
is to make it equally inconvenient for everyone.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

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Darren New escreveu:
> And speaking of FUD, have you watched any of the "Hi, I'm a PC" 
> commercials lately? :-)  They're getting embarrassing.

Apple has style and sense of humour.  Microsoft just looks bland like a 
nondescript beige PC of old... :D

>>   If Microsoft (and especially Steve Ballmer) stopped trolling around and
>> concentrated only on what they are good at, they could get a better
>> reputation.
> 
> I don't think so. But we'll have to agree to disagree.

I don't think so either.  Microsoft *are* doing what they are good at. ;)

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Mike Raiford wrote:
> I don't see Linux gaining the end user desktop market in the foreseeable
> future.

As someone who runs Linux on his desktop... I agree.

I use KDE 3.5. Yesterday I tried GNOME. Today I tried KDE 4. My opinion
was "I want to go write a desktop environment from scratch NOW! None of the
current ones is any good!"

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:
> (and especially Steve Ballmer)

Also known as Elmer FUD. (I read about that name on a forum, it's *amazing*
how well it fits him)

Post a reply to this message

Warp wrote:
> nemesis <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>> Warp escreveu:
>>> 2) Why does Microsoft care about Linux, with its... what? Less than 1% market
>>> share?
> 
>> I think they are more worried about enterprise Linux server installs, 
>> which go beyond that puny 1% mark.
> 
>   Even if 10% of companies used Linux in their servers, how much does
> that mean in the total revenue of Microsoft?
> 
>   I would wildly guess that at least 99% of Windows sales revenues come
> from individuals, the remaining 1% from other companies. If FUD'ing the
> one tenth of companies not using Windows in their servers to switch to
> Windows would succeed, how much would Microsoft's revenue increase?
> Something 0.1%? One thousandth of what they current get.

	I wouldn't be so sure about those figures. See:

http://www.ventureblogalist.com/?p=96
http://www.belshe.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/msftbreakdown.png

	I think it's mostly companies that buy servers and tools.


-- 
Save the whales. Collect the whole set.


                    /\  /\               /\  /
                   /  \/  \ u e e n     /  \/  a w a z
                       >>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
                                   anl

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:12:33 -0200, nemesis wrote:
> 
>> nemesis escreveu:
>>> Jim Henderson escreveu:
>>>> On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:51:23 -0200, nemesis wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Autodesk is the Adobe of 3D software:  AutoCAD, 3DSMax, Maya and now
>>>>> they also assimilated XSI, much to the dismay of its users as the
>>>>> crying in many forums worldwide suggests...
>>>> Autodesk is *owned* by Adobe....
>>> what?  WHAAATTT??!
>>>
>>> seriously, never heard of that before... :O
>> oh, I see, you're actually saying Adobe PWNS Autodesk, right? ;)
> 
> Yeaaaah, yeah, that's what I meant. ;-)

And just when I was going to say that you REALLY drove my point home...

-- 
~Mike

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Nicolas Alvarez escreveu:
> Mike Raiford wrote:
>> I don't see Linux gaining the end user desktop market in the foreseeable
>> future.
> 
> As someone who runs Linux on his desktop... I agree.

This comes as a surprise!  Since when, might I ask?

> I use KDE 3.5. Yesterday I tried GNOME. Today I tried KDE 4.

Tomorrow you'll try recompiling the kernel and installing microsoft 
fonts and Office running on wine, right? ;)

I smell a new Linux user temporaly blind by all the geeky 
possibilities... :D

> My opinion
> was "I want to go write a desktop environment from scratch NOW! None of the
> current ones is any good!"

Oh, better than recompiling the kernel, I guess.

BTW, both latest Gnome and KDE 4 are pure finesse when compared to the 
geeky desktop environments I had to cope with in the old days.  Anyone 
remembers when Gnome used to come with Lispy Sawfish and Xeyes? ;)

They also hold up quite well when compared to Vista.  Aqua is another 
level, though...

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On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 12:02:58 -0800, Darren New wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> There's OpenXchange, and another I've heard of called Zimbra, I think.
> 
> Neither is really the same thing, any more than Google Mail/Calendar/etc
> is.

I've never really looked in-depth at either of them, but it seems to me 
that if the backend provides the same functionality as Exchange and can 
use an Outlook client, then it should be sufficient.

My understanding (again, not from direct experience) was that those two 
products provided that.

Jim

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On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 14:24:03 -0600, Mike Raiford wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:12:33 -0200, nemesis wrote:
>> 
>>> nemesis escreveu:
>>>> Jim Henderson escreveu:
>>>>> On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:51:23 -0200, nemesis wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Autodesk is the Adobe of 3D software:  AutoCAD, 3DSMax, Maya and
>>>>>> now they also assimilated XSI, much to the dismay of its users as
>>>>>> the crying in many forums worldwide suggests...
>>>>> Autodesk is *owned* by Adobe....
>>>> what?  WHAAATTT??!
>>>>
>>>> seriously, never heard of that before... :O
>>> oh, I see, you're actually saying Adobe PWNS Autodesk, right? ;)
>> 
>> Yeaaaah, yeah, that's what I meant. ;-)
> 
> And just when I was going to say that you REALLY drove my point home...

Hehehehe, well, maybe that's what I meant, subconsciously. ;-)

Jim

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On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 18:17:31 -0200, nemesis wrote:


>> I don't think so. But we'll have to agree to disagree.
> 
> I don't think so either.  Microsoft *are* doing what they are good at.
> ;)

It's just a question of what you think they're good at. ;-)

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> My understanding (again, not from direct experience) was that those two 
> products provided that.

They try. :-)

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Ouch ouch ouch!"
   "What's wrong? Noodles too hot?"
   "No, I have Chopstick Tunnel Syndrome."

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 13:04:54 -0800, Darren New wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> My understanding (again, not from direct experience) was that those two
>> products provided that.
> 
> They try. :-)

Well, it's also been about 6 years since I ran Exchange for e-mail.  :-)

Jim

Post a reply to this message

nemesis wrote:

> Nicolas Alvarez escreveu:
>> Mike Raiford wrote:
>>> I don't see Linux gaining the end user desktop market in the foreseeable
>>> future.
>> 
>> As someone who runs Linux on his desktop... I agree.
> 
> This comes as a surprise!  Since when, might I ask?

Not sure. Over 6 months ago. Any idea where that might be stored? Any file
timestamp unlikely to change since install? Since May 2008 it seems, but I
thought it was at least a month later than that...

For what *I* typically do on a computer (which involves a lot of C++
compiling), it's perfect. And my mom can still read her email.

>> I use KDE 3.5. Yesterday I tried GNOME. Today I tried KDE 4.
> 
> Tomorrow you'll try recompiling the kernel and installing microsoft
> fonts and Office running on wine, right? ;)
> 
> I smell a new Linux user temporaly blind by all the geeky
> possibilities... :D

I'm not new; I did admin stuff on a remote server (over ssh) for like a year
before installing Linux on my desktop; and I installed Linux on my desktop
over 6 months ago.

I used KDE 3.5 all the time here. I should update to the next version of
Kubuntu, but that means going to KDE 4 like it or not. I was also trying
GNOME because last time I tried it was years ago. Doesn't seem to have
improved much.

I was comparing because KDE 3.5 isn't really that good. But it seems the
alternatives aren't too much better...

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>  I would wildly guess that at least 99% of Windows sales revenues come
> from individuals, the remaining 1% from other companies. If FUD'ing the
> one tenth of companies not using Windows in their servers to switch to
> Windows would succeed, how much would Microsoft's revenue increase?
> Something 0.1%? One thousandth of what they current get.
>
>  Big deal? I really think MS is just being paranoid and making a lot
> of noise over nothing.

0.1% of what MS currently gets is quite a lot of money, enough to employ 
lots more people, build new offices, maybe even help to payoff the EU some 
more :-)  You can't ignore 0.1% of your total revenue!

Post a reply to this message

>>   IMO they should invest their resources on making better products rather
>> than trying to gain some 0.1% of market share by dubious means, which is
>> only negative PR for them and can cause a backlash. You don't get a
>> positive image of yourself by bashing your opponents. You do it by doing
>> a good job and offering high-quality products, and letting your products
>> speak for you.
>
> That isn't the way M$ does business. Typically they achieve market share 
> by eliminating competition rather than producing quality products.
>
> Of course, if they *did* sit up and start making better products, that 
> would be nice...

AIUI MS are trying to crush Linux by improving their products in areas where 
they think Linux is better.  Nothing wrong with that, happens all the time 
in every industry - it's just up to Linux to fight back just as hard by 
improving their software in areas where they are currently behind MS (which 
they have been doing).  It's just normal business behaviour between two 
competitors.

Post a reply to this message

>  Why do you think MS is so hated and eg. Apple isn't? Because Apple 
> doesn't
> use so many glaringly dubious attack tactics and get the hatred of every
> living being on Earth.

Sorry, but that's obviously not true, maybe in online forums and chatrooms 
the geeks complain about MS, but in real life nobody cares, and that makes 
up for far more of the MS customer base.  Think about it, if *everyone* 
really hated MS so badly they would actively look for alternatives and MS 
would lose most of its market share, but it's not like that.

Next time someone says they hate MS and don't do anything right, ask them 
how they would run MS differently, and how they would make more profit than 
MS is currently making.  Bash MS or not, they are still a very successful 
company and can afford to pay the best people to make sure it continues to 
be very successful.  Some unknown person in an online forum (who knows 
virtually nothing about how MS works) saying how he thinks MS should be run 
differently is just laughable.

Post a reply to this message

On 1/27/2009 8:22 AM, Warp wrote:
> nemesis<nam### [at] gmailcom>  wrote:
>> Warp escreveu:
>>> 2) Why does Microsoft care about Linux, with its... what? Less than 1% market
>>> share?
>
>> I think they are more worried about enterprise Linux server installs,
>> which go beyond that puny 1% mark.
>
>    Even if 10% of companies used Linux in their servers, how much does
> that mean in the total revenue of Microsoft?

The majority of revenue for MS comes from two (sets of) products: Office 
and Windows.

For Windows, the licenses are pretty evenly split between new computer 
sales and Enterprise licenses[1].

While the PC Sales are a nice bag to hold, it means you're vulnerable to 
trends in the whole industry.  For instance, new PC sales this year were 
down, meaning a lot of MS's revenue was lost.

The Enterprise market is what they really like, because they sell 
licenses by the thousands.  If Linux makes headway here, combined with 
the loss of new PC licenses, then it can *really* hurt MS.

[1]Since the days of Windows 95, MS has failed to convince a majority of 
home users that upgrading is worthwhile.  They do sell *some* licenses 
as upgrades for home users, but it's a practically non-existent revenue 
stream for them.

...Chambers
www.pacificwebguy.com

Post a reply to this message

Nicolas Alvarez <nic### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> Not sure. Over 6 months ago. Any idea where that might be stored? Any file
> timestamp unlikely to change since install?

ls -lh /bin/sh

Post a reply to this message

nemesis wrote:
> Nicolas Alvarez <nic### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>> Not sure. Over 6 months ago. Any idea where that might be stored? Any
>> file timestamp unlikely to change since install?
> 
> ls -lh /bin/sh

2008-05-03 21:59

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
> Sorry, but that's obviously not true, maybe in online forums and chatrooms
> the geeks complain about MS, but in real life nobody cares, and that makes
> up for far more of the MS customer base.  Think about it, if *everyone*
> really hated MS so badly they would actively look for alternatives and MS
> would lose most of its market share, but it's not like that.

I read that people get used to things working badly, and I confirmed it with
my sister. I once watched through the process after she logged in, pointed
at the error popups that appeared, and she just indifferently said "oh yeah
that appears every time, I just close it". She didn't even like... *tell*
me so I can try to fix it.

Or the time I saw her very quickly click on all the FlashBlock placeholders
on a Flash-heavy page (it was clear she had done that a dozen times). She
didn't ever think there had to be an easier way (there is a domain
whitelist).

Post a reply to this message

> I read that people get used to things working badly, and I confirmed it 
> with
> my sister. I once watched through the process after she logged in, pointed
> at the error popups that appeared, and she just indifferently said "oh 
> yeah
> that appears every time, I just close it". She didn't even like... *tell*
> me so I can try to fix it.

Yeh that was kinda my point, normal people don't care enough about things 
like that to even try to find a solution, let alone go around publically 
announcing how they think MS could be run better.

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:

> Yeh that was kinda my point, normal people don't care enough about 
> things like that to even try to find a solution, let alone go around 
> publically announcing how they think MS could be run better.

M$ has somehow succeeded in convincing people that it is somehow 
"normal" for computers to not work correctly.

I mean, if your car occasionally stalled for no apparent reason, you'd 
demand to have it fixed. But if your computer sometimes doesn't work, 
everybody seems to think that that's just "how it is", and that this 
incorrect behaviour is somehow "acceptable".

Unfortunately, as more and more stuff becomes computer-controlled, 
people find it more and more acceptable for things to not work properly. 
  For example, mobile phones that occasionally "crash" and have to be 
"rebooted" to make them work again. TVs that occasionally "forget" where 
all the channels are and have to rescan for them. And so on.

10 years ago, if you bought a TV and it sometimes stopped working 
properly, you'd call the manufacturers and demand that they fix it. 
Today, it seems to be the attitude that "oh, well, it's a high-tech 
thing; it's inherantly impossible to make it actually work properly". WTF?

Thank you, Micro$oft.

Post a reply to this message

Nicolas Alvarez escreveu:
> I read that people get used to things working badly, and I confirmed it with
> my sister. I once watched through the process after she logged in, pointed
> at the error popups that appeared, and she just indifferently said "oh yeah
> that appears every time, I just close it". She didn't even like... *tell*
> me so I can try to fix it.

Exactly.  People just take it for granted that such things are normal 
behaviour associated with computers.  They don't think it could be any 
different.  That's why so many people hate computers and would gladly 
drop it if there was other way to watch videos, chat and browse the web. 
  They think it's an issue with computers.

> Or the time I saw her very quickly click on all the FlashBlock placeholders
> on a Flash-heavy page (it was clear she had done that a dozen times). She
> didn't ever think there had to be an easier way (there is a domain
> whitelist).

FlashBlock?!  My sister won't even touch Firefox!  Anytime I'm at my 
parent's and leave the computer for others to use -- it's a single 
Windows passwordless session (because it's "easy") -- I leave Firefox 
open with a clean new tab.  First thing she does is close Firefox and 
click on the old blue e.  It's like dog conditioning, I guess, because 
she seems to not even realize it's a web browser sitting just before her...

Post a reply to this message

Invisible escreveu:
> M$ has somehow succeeded in convincing people that it is somehow 
> "normal" for computers to not work correctly.

Oh, crap!  should've read this first... who said top posting is bad? :P

Post a reply to this message

nemesis wrote:

> FlashBlock?!  My sister won't even touch Firefox!  Anytime I'm at my 
> parent's and leave the computer for others to use -- it's a single 
> Windows passwordless session (because it's "easy") -- I leave Firefox 
> open with a clean new tab.  First thing she does is close Firefox and 
> click on the old blue e.  It's like dog conditioning, I guess, because 
> she seems to not even realize it's a web browser sitting just before her...

...did you just call somebody a dog? ;-)

Post a reply to this message

Nicolas Alvarez wrote:
> As someone who runs Linux on his desktop... I agree.
> 
> I use KDE 3.5. Yesterday I tried GNOME. Today I tried KDE 4. My opinion
> was "I want to go write a desktop environment from scratch NOW! None of the
> current ones is any good!"

	Try KDE 4.2? Just came out and is "supposed" to be the first in the 4.x
series that was really meant for end users.

	You may be right about DE's, however, Windows doesn't even come close
when it comes to window managers. No way will I sacrifice my WM for
anything Windows provides.
	
-- 
"Scotty, beam us a board!" (2x4 drops from sky)


                    /\  /\               /\  /
                   /  \/  \ u e e n     /  \/  a w a z
                       >>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
                                   anl

Post a reply to this message

Mueen Nawaz wrote:

> 	You may be right about DE's, however, Windows doesn't even come close
> when it comes to window managers. No way will I sacrifice my WM for
> anything Windows provides.

I've yet to find a WM that's less annoying than Windows.

(Unless you count AmigaOS, anyway...)

Post a reply to this message

On Wed, 28 Jan 2009 09:01:45 +0100, scott wrote:

> AIUI MS are trying to crush Linux by improving their products in areas
> where they think Linux is better.

If they do that, that's fine.  Historically, they haven't, though (in 
general, I'm sure someone could say "well, they did here"), but instead 
have engaged in FUD and using scare tactics ("Linux is tainted by 
proprietary code that Microsoft owns", for example - allegations that 
have never been proven, but have in fact been successfully refuted over 
and over).  Of course, the use of these kinds of scare tactics pull 
resources from Linux development in order to defend against them, so MS 
uses that strategy to slow development of a competing product down.  With 
varying degrees of effectiveness - having a pool of volunteer coders 
helps with that....

Jim

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:
> M$ has somehow succeeded in convincing people that it is somehow
> "normal" for computers to not work correctly.

	Unintended side effect. People think it's normal because it happens on
most other computers they know (all running MS).

> I mean, if your car occasionally stalled for no apparent reason, you'd
> demand to have it fixed. But if your computer sometimes doesn't work,

	Not if almost all your friends' cars also exhibited this behavior.

-- 
"Scotty, beam us a board!" (2x4 drops from sky)


                    /\  /\               /\  /
                   /  \/  \ u e e n     /  \/  a w a z
                       >>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
                                   anl

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 13:26:24 -0500, Warp wrote:

> >   If Microsoft (and especially Steve Ballmer) stopped trolling around
> >   and
> > concentrated only on what they are good at, they could get a better
> > reputation. But no. I think that at least with Steve Ballmer it's some
> > kind of odd twisted imago reputation which he *wants* to maintain, for
> > some incomprehensible reason.

> For Ballmer (and Gates before him), it's all about control.  They don't 
> like what they can't control, so they have to either try to control it or 
> destroy it.

  And that's why he always tries as hard as possible to become the
laughing stock of the internet with his stupid antics?

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> >   If Microsoft (and especially Steve Ballmer) stopped trolling around and
> > concentrated only on what they are good at, they could get a better
> > reputation.

> I don't think so.

  You are probably right: The damage has already been done and there's
nothing MS can do to fix it.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

nemesis <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> FlashBlock?!  My sister won't even touch Firefox!  Anytime I'm at my 
> parent's and leave the computer for others to use -- it's a single 
> Windows passwordless session (because it's "easy") -- I leave Firefox 
> open with a clean new tab.  First thing she does is close Firefox and 
> click on the old blue e.  It's like dog conditioning, I guess, because 
> she seems to not even realize it's a web browser sitting just before her...

  Download an IE skin for Firefox and change Firefox's icon to that of IE.
See how long it takes for her to notice there's something wrong with it.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message