And lo on Mon, 03 Sep 2007 10:11:23 +0100, St. <dot### [at] dotcom> did spake,  
saying:

>
> "scott" <sco### [at] laptopcom> wrote in message  
> news:46dbb643@news.povray.org...
>
>> BTW, why is it illegal there to park outside the marked bays?  There
>> doesn't seem to be any yellow lines, or does it say on the sign "parking
>> only in marked bays"?
>
>       I have no idea why it's illegal. All I know is that since the  
> police don't control parking regs any more, there's been a drive to get  
> as many
> people booked with an offence as much as possible. Seriously, you should  
> see the parking attendants in action around here, they all walk fast  
> looking for the next one.

Am I too late for the party? Looking at the photos you've posted I can see  
a Parking sign on the opposite side of the street and what could be the  
back of one on the other side. As for the blue car on the corner, it's  
inadvisable to park there, but not illegal; I also note the post without a  
sign, if there's no sign a case could be made by the owner for not knowing  
it was bay parking only on that side of the bay.

>> If it was me, I would write in the letter for a clarification of exactly
>> what the white line means.  Does your entire tyre foot-print have to be
>> inside the inner border of the line, or is it allowed to be on the line.
>> Or does it mean your entire car must be inside the line, overhangs and
>> all, and which side of the line counts... etc.  If they don't have a
>> detailed policy on this then how can they prosecute people in a fair  
>> way,
>> it's probably against some European human rights thingy that they have  
>> to
>> treat everyone fairly.. blah blah blah.

That's a case in point; strictly speaking the vehicle has to be within the  
lines - that's the whole vehicle. Most authorities go with the tire thing  
though. Of course then you have to define 'within' as the lines themselves  
have width ;-)

>      It's a new directive over here now. As I said, the police don't  
> control
> parking any more, the council employs people to do it. It's a self  
> financing
> thing too, so money has to be incoming. I just found this in one of our
> council's  PDF files:

Ah yes decriminalise it and make it a civil matter. In theory a good idea,  
instead of being a tag-on of the whole police budget it gains its own  
accounts; it also frees up a police officer with a wide range of powers  
who could be handling something else and replaces them with a parking  
enforcer with limited ones. Likewise as the local authority tend to be the  
ones who set the parking restrictions it makes sense they enforce them,  
keeps them in the same basket. Oh and of course it's self-financing.

Okay any council that proposes self-financing parking enforcement needs  
clubbing to death, burying, and a new (and hopefully smarter) council  
elected. The whole aim of parking enforcement is as a preventative  
punishment, the whole requirement of self-financing is that *it keeps  
happening*. Any successfull parking enforcement scheme that relies on  
fining brings in no money. Then what do you do fire the enforcers,until  
the situation gets bad again then bring them back?

Do that and any smart enforcer will soon realise that they should limit  
the number of tickets they hand out, keep the problem ticking over while  
keeping it a level below that it started with to show they are at least  
doing something. Try to nip that in the bud and set performance figures  
and you'll get them issuing fines over petty infringments that get  
overturned later by anyone fighting them.

Sounds like you've got the latter on your hands.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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"Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote in message 
news:op.tyfw5rskc3xi7v@news.povray.org...


> Sounds like you've got the latter on your hands.

   Yep, all of what you said was bang on Phil. Anyway, I haven't had time 
until now to say that I got my answer on Friday - no go. <sniff, bye bye 


    I thought some of the comments in the letter were interesting:

    "As a rule and for consistency purposes within our Section, we will not 
issue a Penalty Charge Notice to a vehicle unless one wheel is outside the 
bay."

     Erm, now let me get this straight, one wheel outside the bay??! How is 
that possible in a car?

    And this:

    "Further to your correspondence I would like to point out that waiting 
bays are marked out between drop kerbs, therefore, the length of the bays 
are not measured on the number of vehicles that can park within the bays."

    Hmm, they might as well have just painted a bay that's easily big enough 
for just one car alone, much easier, costs less in paint if they did that 
with all bays too. But wait. They wouldn't get the fine then would they?

    Damn jobsworths.

     ~Steve~



>
> -- 
> Phil Cook
>
> --
> I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
> http://flipc.blogspot.com

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And lo on Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:54:42 +0100, St. <dot### [at] dotcom> did spake,  
saying:

>
> "Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote in message
> news:op.tyfw5rskc3xi7v@news.povray.org...
>
>
>> Sounds like you've got the latter on your hands.
>
>    Yep, all of what you said was bang on Phil.

Of course it was me saying it, besides it's about roads :-P

> Anyway, I haven't had time
> until now to say that I got my answer on Friday - no go. <sniff, bye bye


Dumb thing is if it were still a police matter I bet it would never have  
been ticketed in the first place, they'd have realised the difference in  
an infraction causing a problem and one that doesn't and simply not wanted  
the hassle of all the paperwork.

>     I thought some of the comments in the letter were interesting:
>
>     "As a rule and for consistency purposes within our Section, we will  
> not issue a Penalty Charge Notice to a vehicle unless one wheel is  
> outside the bay."
>
>      Erm, now let me get this straight, one wheel outside the bay??! How  
> is that possible in a car?

On the side sure - slight angle with one wheel on the line, one outside.  
Damn easy on some of the narrower bays.

>     And this:
>
>     "Further to your correspondence I would like to point out that  
> waiting bays are marked out between drop kerbs, therefore, the length of  
> the bays
> are not measured on the number of vehicles that can park within the  
> bays."

Yup and they have to allow some wiggle room on the drop kerbs so they just  
go from point-to-point, it's up to the driver to determine if they can fit.

>     Hmm, they might as well have just painted a bay that's easily big  
> enough for just one car alone, much easier, costs less in paint if they  
> did that
> with all bays too. But wait. They wouldn't get the fine then would they?

To be fair they would then get people complaining that there's space  
between the drop-kerbs for two small cars, but they've haven't painted the  
bay large enough.

>     Damn jobsworths.

Easy - next time get there early when no-one's there and park directly in  
the middle of the bay; won't win your neighbour's friendship, but you  
can't be touched by the enforcers. Might start a block war, with everyone  
revving their engines waiting to be the one to dominate the space; might  
get the council to remove the bays in the first place.

Actually I'm kind of curious as to why they're their in the first place?  
Was there some problem with people parking in front of driveways or  
whatever?

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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"Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote in message 
news:op.tyfztib2c3xi7v@news.povray.org...
> And lo on Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:54:42 +0100, St. <dot### [at] dotcom> did spake, 
> saying:
>
>>
>> "Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote in message
>> news:op.tyfw5rskc3xi7v@news.povray.org...
>>
>>
>>> Sounds like you've got the latter on your hands.
>>
>>    Yep, all of what you said was bang on Phil.
>
> Of course it was me saying it, besides it's about roads :-P

      Heh, yeah, I knew that. :)


>
>> Anyway, I haven't had time
>> until now to say that I got my answer on Friday - no go. <sniff, bye bye

>
> Dumb thing is if it were still a police matter I bet it would never have 
> been ticketed in the first place, they'd have realised the difference in 
> an infraction causing a problem and one that doesn't and simply not wanted 
> the hassle of all the paperwork.

     That's so true. Kinda makes me want them back now, at least if you did 
get a ticket, you'd know that they would probably be right in their 
decision.


>
>>     I thought some of the comments in the letter were interesting:
>>
>>     "As a rule and for consistency purposes within our Section, we will 
>> not issue a Penalty Charge Notice to a vehicle unless one wheel is 
>> outside the bay."
>>
>>      Erm, now let me get this straight, one wheel outside the bay??! How 
>> is that possible in a car?
>
> On the side sure - slight angle with one wheel on the line, one outside. 
> Damn easy on some of the narrower bays.

       Yeah, hadn't thought of that, but it reminds me that when I was in a 
nearby town on Saturday, I looked at some of the bays there and they were 
wide! Seriously, probably a foot wider than ours - there was loads of room.


>
>>     And this:
>>
>>     "Further to your correspondence I would like to point out that 
>> waiting bays are marked out between drop kerbs, therefore, the length of 
>> the bays
>> are not measured on the number of vehicles that can park within the 
>> bays."
>
> Yup and they have to allow some wiggle room on the drop kerbs so they just 
> go from point-to-point, it's up to the driver to determine if they can 
> fit.

      "Oh, damn, my back wheels are just going to be outside the line, I 
better move on and find somewhere else to make that important appointment. 
Hmm, where shall I go, there doesn't seem to be anywhere, they're all full." 
Twenty minutes later: "Ah, there's a spot! I'll get in that one." Checks 
time: "Missed the appointment!"

     It doesn't make sense.


>
>>     Hmm, they might as well have just painted a bay that's easily big 
>> enough for just one car alone, much easier, costs less in paint if they 
>> did that
>> with all bays too. But wait. They wouldn't get the fine then would they?
>
> To be fair they would then get people complaining that there's space 
> between the drop-kerbs for two small cars, but they've haven't painted the 
> bay large enough.

     Well, yeah, true.


>
>>     Damn jobsworths.
>
> Easy - next time get there early when no-one's there and park directly in 
> the middle of the bay; won't win your neighbour's friendship, but you 
> can't be touched by the enforcers. Might start a block war, with everyone 
> revving their engines waiting to be the one to dominate the space; might 
> get the council to remove the bays in the first place.

     LOL! :) Well, you know, I'd already thought of that, but if it is 
empty, I'll probably park as far forward as I can, because to be honest, I 
would feel uncomfortable knowing someone will probably get a ticket behind 
me. Hmm, I might put a sign in the car that I can stick on the back 
windscreen warning people not to park behind me if they've got a big or long 
car. I bet the council have made a stack from that bay, and it would be nice 
to save a pensioner some money.

.


>
> Actually I'm kind of curious as to why they're their in the first place? 
> Was there some problem with people parking in front of driveways or 
> whatever?

     Yes, I think it was about five years ago that they put the bays there. 
It's a one way street, so everyone was parking on the left hand side for 
ease of parking I guess. There's certainly more bays on the left than on the 
right, as you can see from the images. Certainly as you walk up the left 
side, you can see all the little notices nailed to the trees warning people 
not to block the driveways.

    Soon, I'll take another photo of a road situation which you would simply 
hate Phil. It would be your worst nightmare if you had to drive to work 
through it everyday.  :o)

      ~Steve~





>
> -- 
> Phil Cook
>
> --
> I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
> http://flipc.blogspot.com

Post a reply to this message

And lo on Mon, 10 Sep 2007 16:05:47 +0100, St. <dot### [at] dotcom> did spake,  
saying:

>
> "Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote in message
> news:op.tyfztib2c3xi7v@news.povray.org...
>> And lo on Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:54:42 +0100, St. <dot### [at] dotcom> did spake,
>> saying:
>>
>>>
>>> "Phil Cook" <phi### [at] nospamrocainfreeservecouk> wrote in message
>>> news:op.tyfw5rskc3xi7v@news.povray.org...
>>>
>>>
>>>> Sounds like you've got the latter on your hands.
>>>
>>>    Yep, all of what you said was bang on Phil.
>>
>> Of course it was me saying it, besides it's about roads :-P
>
>       Heh, yeah, I knew that. :)

I am the road man coo coo ca choo

>>> Anyway, I haven't had time
>>> until now to say that I got my answer on Friday - no go. <sniff, bye  
>>> bye

>>
>> Dumb thing is if it were still a police matter I bet it would never have
>> been ticketed in the first place, they'd have realised the difference in
>> an infraction causing a problem and one that doesn't and simply not  
>> wanted
>> the hassle of all the paperwork.
>
>      That's so true. Kinda makes me want them back now, at least if you  
> did get a ticket, you'd know that they would probably be right in their
> decision.

Exactly and bonus you've got a police officer patrolling the street.

>>>     I thought some of the comments in the letter were interesting:
>>>
>>>     "As a rule and for consistency purposes within our Section, we will
>>> not issue a Penalty Charge Notice to a vehicle unless one wheel is
>>> outside the bay."
>>>
>>>      Erm, now let me get this straight, one wheel outside the bay??!  
>>> How
>>> is that possible in a car?
>>
>> On the side sure - slight angle with one wheel on the line, one outside.
>> Damn easy on some of the narrower bays.
>
>        Yeah, hadn't thought of that, but it reminds me that when I was  
> in a nearby town on Saturday, I looked at some of the bays there and  
> they were
> wide! Seriously, probably a foot wider than ours - there was loads of  
> room.

1.8m to 2.7m at the discretion of the local authority (damn how sad to  
know that) disabled bays have to be 2.7m minimum 3.6m maximum, unless the  
road width can't support the traffic at that width (In which case you can  
go back down to 1.8m); angled bays are 2 to 2.5m. Now go get your  
tape-measure :-)

>>>     And this:
>>>
>>>     "Further to your correspondence I would like to point out that
>>> waiting bays are marked out between drop kerbs, therefore, the length  
>>> of
>>> the bays
>>> are not measured on the number of vehicles that can park within the
>>> bays."
>>
>> Yup and they have to allow some wiggle room on the drop kerbs so they  
>> just
>> go from point-to-point, it's up to the driver to determine if they can
>> fit.
>
>       "Oh, damn, my back wheels are just going to be outside the line, I
> better move on and find somewhere else to make that important  
> appointment.
> Hmm, where shall I go, there doesn't seem to be anywhere, they're all  
> full."
> Twenty minutes later: "Ah, there's a spot! I'll get in that one." Checks
> time: "Missed the appointment!"
>
>      It doesn't make sense.

Only from a revenue-collecting standpoint, from a traffic-control one it  
makes no sense unless you're actually blocking something; there's the  
dichotomy.

>>>     Damn jobsworths.
>>
>> Easy - next time get there early when no-one's there and park directly  
>> in
>> the middle of the bay; won't win your neighbour's friendship, but you
>> can't be touched by the enforcers. Might start a block war, with  
>> everyone
>> revving their engines waiting to be the one to dominate the space; might
>> get the council to remove the bays in the first place.
>
>      LOL! :) Well, you know, I'd already thought of that, but if it is
> empty, I'll probably park as far forward as I can, because to be honest,  
> I would feel uncomfortable knowing someone will probably get a ticket  
> behind me.

To be honest me too, damn this moral conscience I'd be ruling the world by  
now otherwise.

> Hmm, I might put a sign in the car that I can stick on the back
> windscreen warning people not to park behind me if they've got a big or  
> long
> car. I bet the council have made a stack from that bay, and it would be  
> nice
> to save a pensioner some money.

That would be a nice gesture.

>> Actually I'm kind of curious as to why they're their in the first place?
>> Was there some problem with people parking in front of driveways or
>> whatever?
>
>      Yes, I think it was about five years ago that they put the bays  
> there.
> It's a one way street, so everyone was parking on the left hand side for
> ease of parking I guess. There's certainly more bays on the left than on  
> the right, as you can see from the images. Certainly as you walk up the  
> left
> side, you can see all the little notices nailed to the trees warning  
> people not to block the driveways.

Single yellows straight along might have been better.

>     Soon, I'll take another photo of a road situation which you would  
> simply hate Phil. It would be your worst nightmare if you had to drive  
> to work
> through it everyday.  :o)

I can't wait...um. Heh you should have overheard the police at our  
carnival when the doctor's car and the ambulance had to drive against the  
procession over our one and only bridge or face a nine-mile diversion (at  
the least) "Well they'll just have to get out of the bloody way"

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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