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From: Hildur K 
Subject: Re: TC-RTC Rant
Date: 15 Jul 2008 10:50:01
Message: <web.487cb8ce1e626beb21c3a4290@news.povray.org>
On a more serious note (rant),


just repeating myself. Trying to keep myself from stagnation, seeing your work
encourages me to push the limit.



favorite and an inspiration, great work on that bridge!

Hildur


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From: Thomas de Groot
Subject: Re: TC-RTC Rant
Date: 16 Jul 2008 04:53:07
Message: <487db6f3$1@news.povray.org>
"Hildur K." <hil### [at] 3dcafemailevery1net> schreef in bericht 
news:web.487cb8ce1e626beb21c3a4290@news.povray.org...
> On a more serious note (rant),
>

> rut of
> just repeating myself. Trying to keep myself from stagnation, seeing your 
> work
> encourages me to push the limit.
>


> favorite and an inspiration, great work on that bridge!
>

Oh, thank you indeed, Hildur! Much appreciated!

This is what I some much like in the competitions or in the ng's: that there 
is a shared stimulus towards better work, like you say, pushing the limit 
each time further. I am sure I could not have achieved what I sometimes am 
able to achieve without the inspiration and comments from others. The 
quality of others' work makes me more demanding on my own, and that is an 
excellent thing indeed. I am sure that many of us feel the same.

You know that your Forgotten Neighbourhood is still haunting me? It is one 
of those scenes that has made a deep and lasting impression on me.

Regards,

Thomas


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From: Hildur K 
Subject: Re: TC-RTC Rant
Date: 17 Jul 2008 08:05:00
Message: <web.487f34c51e626beb21c3a4290@news.povray.org>
"Thomas de Groot" <t.d### [at] internlDOTnet> wrote:
> "Hildur K." <hil### [at] 3dcafemailevery1net> schreef in bericht
> news:web.487cb8ce1e626beb21c3a4290@news.povray.org...


>
> This is what I some much like in the competitions or in the ng's: that there
> is a shared stimulus towards better work, like you say, pushing the limit
> each time further. I am sure I could not have achieved what I sometimes am
> able to achieve without the inspiration and comments from others. The
> quality of others' work makes me more demanding on my own, and that is an
> excellent thing indeed. I am sure that many of us feel the same.

Exactly my point. Without the support of this community I would still be
rendering TINA CHEP.
>
> You know that your Forgotten Neighbourhood is still haunting me? It is one
> of those scenes that has made a deep and lasting impression on me.
>
Thank you so much Thomas.

In fact, back then I was living alone, unemployed, (and bit depressed) and had
all the time in the world... which suggests that unemployment combined with


Hildur


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From: Thomas de Groot
Subject: Re: TC-RTC Rant
Date: 17 Jul 2008 10:42:15
Message: <487f5a47@news.povray.org>
"Hildur K." <hil### [at] 3dcafemailevery1net> schreef in bericht 
news:web.487f34c51e626beb21c3a4290@news.povray.org...
> "Thomas de Groot" <t.d### [at] internlDOTnet> wrote:
>> "Hildur K." <hil### [at] 3dcafemailevery1net> schreef in bericht
>> news:web.487cb8ce1e626beb21c3a4290@news.povray.org...
>
> Exactly my point. Without the support of this community I would still be
> rendering TINA CHEP.

LOL

> In fact, back then I was living alone, unemployed, (and bit depressed) and 
> had
> all the time in the world... which suggests that unemployment combined 
> with


I agree. I am retired, and with (almost) all the time in the world   :-)
On the serious side: I sometimes believe that working with POV-Ray etc, is 
mildly therapeutic... At least, it is intoxicating.

Thomas


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From: Hildur K 
Subject: Re: TC-RTC Rant
Date: 17 Jul 2008 17:50:00
Message: <web.487fbd701e626beb21c3a4290@news.povray.org>
"Thomas de Groot" <t.d### [at] internlDOTnet> wrote:

>
> I agree. I am retired, and with (almost) all the time in the world   :-)


what to do to spend the rest of their days, which in many cases is a matter of
several decades. Kind of depressing.

So which one is it? Either you retired young (won the lottery perhaps?)
or you retired and still young (won the biological lottery?)

> On the serious side: I sometimes believe that working with POV-Ray etc, is
> mildly therapeutic... At least, it is intoxicating.

Exactly.

Hildur


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From: Thomas de Groot
Subject: Re: TC-RTC Rant
Date: 18 Jul 2008 04:03:47
Message: <48804e63$1@news.povray.org>
"Hildur K." <hil### [at] 3dcafemailevery1net> schreef in bericht 
news:web.487fbd701e626beb21c3a4290@news.povray.org...
>

> knowing
> what to do to spend the rest of their days, which in many cases is a 
> matter of
> several decades. Kind of depressing.

Yes, that is sad. However, this is not always their own fault. Life and 
circumstances may not have given them the opportunities to develop something 
else besides their work. Because that is essential. While I always have been 
a dedicated and driven researcher in geology, I was also lucky to have been 
able to develop a few other things besides, not related to my main 
activities. POV-Ray is one of them.

>
> So which one is it? Either you retired young (won the lottery perhaps?)
> or you retired and still young (won the biological lottery?)

Well, the first one comes closest. A combination of early retirement 
following institutions fusion and reorganizations. I didn't complain. I had 
some health problems at the time and as the conditions were very acceptable, 
it was the dreamed of opportunity to switch to other occupations, while 
still remaining interested (and mildly involved) in geology.

Thomas


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From: John Coppens
Subject: Re: TC-RTC Rant
Date: 21 Jul 2008 14:31:38
Message: <20080721153136.ca2491cb.john@johncoppens.com>
On Thu,  3 Jul 2008 11:15:33 EDT
"milco2006" <mil### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:

> > Thanks very much for that Stephen, much appreciated. The 20/20/20
> > system is something that will probably be implemented in time for the
> > next voting,
> 
> I have to say that adding a bonus of 20 to everyone who votes seems a
> little strange as the only reason I did not vote (as discussed in
> previous thread here) is that I could not, thus those who vote gain a
> good boost by getting 20 extra points for each section for voting.
> Surely it would be more logical to add their average score to their
> overall to make up the difference.

And in a previous message, I found: (Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:49:50 +0100)

> If you enter the next round,
> you will get rating and commenting privileges. It's designed to keep
> members interested and possibly entering, and, as we all know, feedback
> on any given image is always good too. :)

So, effectively a first entry would receive 20/20/20 points less than
one from an established (and voting) member? Maybe we should give an
initial submission 20/20/20 for free to equalize the field?

Conceptually I don't understand how voting could improve the artistic
value of a submission (or concept, tech value, for that matter)... Mixing
apples and oranges? (of course I understand the need for voter
incentive, but is this the right way?)

Anyway, I would suggest that having a completely separate site for these
competitions does no good to increasing the exposure of the competition
(or raytracing in general). Though the work of St. is surely appreciated,
wouldn't being a part of something more popular boost things a little?
(maybe - just a suggestion - something like deviantart.com?) It would
solve things like 20/20/20 - participants should be excluded from
voting.  The votes should come from the general public (IMHO).

It would also help with promoting TC-RTC - put 'raytracing competition'
in Google, and the initial 5 pages of links, none points to TC-RTC.

Please take these (radical?) ideas as suggestions, not criticism. I don't
want to start a flame war...

John


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From: St 
Subject: Re: TC-RTC Rant
Date: 21 Jul 2008 17:51:13
Message: <488504d1@news.povray.org>
"John Coppens" <joh### [at] johncoppenscom> wrote in message 
news:200### [at] johncoppenscom...
> On Thu,  3 Jul 2008 11:15:33 EDT
> "milco2006" <mil### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
>
>> > Thanks very much for that Stephen, much appreciated. The 20/20/20
>> > system is something that will probably be implemented in time for the
>> > next voting,
>>
>> I have to say that adding a bonus of 20 to everyone who votes seems a
>> little strange as the only reason I did not vote (as discussed in
>> previous thread here) is that I could not, thus those who vote gain a
>> good boost by getting 20 extra points for each section for voting.
>> Surely it would be more logical to add their average score to their
>> overall to make up the difference.
>
> And in a previous message, I found: (Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:49:50 +0100)
>
>> If you enter the next round,
>> you will get rating and commenting privileges. It's designed to keep
>> members interested and possibly entering, and, as we all know, feedback
>> on any given image is always good too. :)
>
> So, effectively a first entry would receive 20/20/20 points less than
> one from an established (and voting) member? Maybe we should give an
> initial submission 20/20/20 for free to equalize the field?

 Hi John,

   Heh, well, that's the general idea of course. That a score of 20/20/20 is 
given to everyone that can vote. But, I have to admit that I don't like the 
present situation with new-users. I'll look into this.


>
> Conceptually I don't understand how voting could improve the artistic
> value of a submission (or concept, tech value, for that matter)... Mixing
> apples and oranges? (of course I understand the need for voter
> incentive, but is this the right way?)

     Well, one thing I can say is that, with experience, this is one hard 
cooky to crumble. Getting it right is the aim, but that certainly isn't 
easy.

        And as for your actual question in your last sentence... Why not? I 
mean, how can anyone force someone to vote otherwise? Picture this scenario: 
We have a topic that sounds fantastic to a lot of people - they all 
participate - but *no-one* votes/rates/comments - no-one.

     Who wins? What do I put on the front page for the supposed winner(s)?


>
> Anyway, I would suggest that having a completely separate site for these
> competitions does no good to increasing the exposure of the competition
> (or raytracing in general).


  Not quite sure what you mean with this...



> Though the work of St. is surely appreciated,


     Thank you. I'm only trying to get back what we all miss.



> wouldn't being a part of something more popular boost things a little?
> (maybe - just a suggestion - something like deviantart.com?) It would
> solve things like 20/20/20 - participants should be excluded from
> voting.  The votes should come from the general public (IMHO).

      Well, don't forget that this comp., (TINA CHeP), is supposed to be in 
keeping with the IRTC as a 'stand-in' project whilst it was on hiatus. And, 
as we all know, the IRTC is being re-established - which is good, and I wish 
the team well. I'll be the first in the queue to participate, that's for 
sure. ;)

    But, the TC-RTC comp. will always be around even if it is a backup.



> > It would also help with promoting TC-RTC - put 'raytracing competition'
> in Google, and the initial 5 pages of links, none points to TC-RTC.

    Yep, because I simply haven't promoted it yet to any search engine. When 
I feel the time is right, I will, and I have the experience with that side 
of things. I don't want, and won't have, egg on my face to the world. Can 
you understand that?


>
> Please take these (radical?) ideas as suggestions, not criticism. I don't
> want to start a flame war...

   No flame war here John. I really appreciate your thoughts and idea's. 
Keep them coming.

   Oh, and btw, yes, you can enter as many times as you want in all 
categories. (Sorry I didn't get back to you).

      ~Steve~


>
> John


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From: John Coppens
Subject: Re: TC-RTC Rant
Date: 21 Jul 2008 19:20:36
Message: <20080721202034.9a10b17a.john@johncoppens.com>
On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:51:03 +0100
"St." <dot### [at] dotcom> wrote:

> > Conceptually I don't understand how voting could improve the artistic
> > value of a submission (or concept, tech value, for that matter)...
> > Mixing apples and oranges? (of course I understand the need for voter
> > incentive, but is this the right way?)
> 
>      Well, one thing I can say is that, with experience, this is one
> hard cooky to crumble. Getting it right is the aim, but that certainly
> isn't easy.
> 
>      Who wins? What do I put on the front page for the supposed winner
> (s)?

That's why major exposure is essential (see below). There are many
popular photo sites that have a rating system in place.

> > Anyway, I would suggest that having a completely separate site for
> > these competitions does no good to increasing the exposure of the
> > competition (or raytracing in general).
> 
>   Not quite sure what you mean with this...

This is related to the 'popularity' issue of Google. An isolated site
doesn't rate, until links to that site are appearing on the 'net. Then
the site rises in google's opinion. Presenting it through the google
interface doesn't do much - in fact, I doubt it does anything,
particularly with google. At the beginning, if I remember well, they
didn't even have that page. They always declared that it isn't up to the
page owner to get rating.

TC needs links to it, and a big hand can be had if the images appear on
a large site. Ever considered presenting them with the new Google picture
feature?

Another issue with lack of publicity is that I suspect that these
discussion lists on aren't as visible (~ popular) as 'normal' forums on
the 'net. And, even though some of the discussion subjects are found on
the copy at the povray.org site, there is no clear indication on those
pages how to get to the list itself and participate.

Newbies have little idea of the existence of 'news' lists.

> > wouldn't being a part of something more popular boost things a little?
> > (maybe - just a suggestion - something like deviantart.com?) It would
> > solve things like 20/20/20 - participants should be excluded from
> > voting.  The votes should come from the general public (IMHO).
> 
>       Well, don't forget that this comp., (TINA CHeP), is supposed to
> be in keeping with the IRTC as a 'stand-in' project whilst it was on
> hiatus. And, as we all know, the IRTC is being re-established - which
> is good, and I wish the team well. I'll be the first in the queue to
> participate, that's for sure. ;)
> 
>     But, the TC-RTC comp. will always be around even if it is a backup.

Ok... I've offered my help to get the IRTC on-line again too - you might
have noticed that on the other list.

> > in Google, and the initial 5 pages of links, none points to TC-RTC.
> 
>     Yep, because I simply haven't promoted it yet to any search engine.
> When I feel the time is right, I will, and I have the experience with
> that side of things. I don't want, and won't have, egg on my face to
> the world. Can you understand that?

Ok... But remaining with the poultry example - you can't have many
participants (and voters) if you don't publicize... Chicken and egg
problem.

> > Please take these (radical?) ideas as suggestions, not criticism. I
> > don't want to start a flame war...
> 
>    No flame war here John. I really appreciate your thoughts and
> idea's. Keep them coming.
> 
>    Oh, and btw, yes, you can enter as many times as you want in all 
> categories. (Sorry I didn't get back to you).
> 
>       ~Steve~

Great - thanks!

May I suggest adding the closing date for the active competition on the
page... 'July 2008' doesn't state the closing date (which, if I'm correct
is 15th of August). I'm somewhat of a fanatic on the dating subject - I
have to be. My students have a very inventive mind on how to interpret my
dates ;-)

John


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From: Stephen
Subject: Re: TC-RTC Rant
Date: 22 Jul 2008 08:42:21
Message: <4dlb845pd8fpueceiu07cirkvbljgi8uap@4ax.com>
On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 22:51:03 +0100, "St." <dot### [at] dotcom> wrote:

>
>   Heh, well, that's the general idea of course. That a score of 20/20/20 is 
>given to everyone that can vote. But, I have to admit that I don't like the 
>present situation with new-users. I'll look into this.

I think that I need to give an apology to the people that did not vote. I find
that after submitting an entry to the animation contest that I cannot vote. :(


-- 

Regards
     Stephen


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