On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 18:38:32 -0400, Bald Eagle wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> 
>> Everyone's lives are different.  You don't get to dictate the terms
>> that other people live their lives by.
> 
> If only the world of People held to that when they voted.  :|

This isn't a democracy, so that line of thinking really doesn't apply.

>> >> >> Instead of complaining, maybe offer to help out where you can.
> 
> To be fair, I think that's a more difficult proposition than it seems.  
> It's like throwing a resume out into the job market.

He's identified several things that are not coding-related where he could 
step up and offer to assist.  Instead, he bitches about them.

That's not helpful.

> Personalities aside, I think that the core issue is still that no one
> knows who is responsible for what, and it's hard to grasp what can and
> needs to be done when one is not privy to things discussed by "the dev
> team" and other groups with various designations.

That is probably a fair assessment (I wouldn't speak for the pov team).

> When there are difficulties, it is easy to deflect any and all
> discussion by painting someone as [merely] "a complainer".  Or to ignore
> them, or simply maintain radio silence.
> "What you allow, is what will continue."
> Perhaps jr is being "disagreeable," but that doesn't invalidate any of
> his points, and it is perhaps, what is needed.  If POV-Ray was a
> company, it would be sensible to listen to and consider the customer's
> [user's] concerns. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WXo1aFb8MY

He's not being merely disagreeable.  He's being rude.

Your reply here is a great example of how to raise concerns without being 
a jerk.  (I for one appreciate that)

>> >> Being impatient isn't going to make things go faster.
> On the flipside, one might say that being patient won't either.

Being rude and impatient is quite different than asking questions and 
offering to help.  And yes, he did say he could help, but a vague offer 
of help is less useful than saying, for example, "maybe an IRC channel 
would help?  I could set that up and manage it if that would be of use".

Instead of just musing about that as a possibility.  Sure, it's a 
possibility.  Who does he think is going to say "yeah, I've got time for 
that".  Be part of the solution.

>> I don't see anyone else bitching and complaining about the state of
>> development and throwing blame around.
> 
> Would it help if they did?
> Does it matter that jr IS?
> I mean, sometimes it's just a matter of damned if you do, and damned if
> you don't.
> We can discuss 1. people, 2. events, or 3. IDEAS.
> We can leave jr completely out of this, and still address the issues he
> raises.

Certainly. Some of the issues he raises have merit, certainly.  Being a 
dick about how he raises them makes it a lot less likely he's going to 
get answers.

It is, contrary to seemingly popular opinion, possible to raise questions 
and concerns without being a dick about it.  People do it literally every 
single day.

>> .... putting together a laundry list of complaints isn't really a great
>> way to motivate people to do what you want them to do.
> 
> No, but the 12-steppers would say that the first step to fixing things
> is recognizing that you have a problem.   Whether you like they way they
> tell you or not is - from a POV-Ray development standpoint - irrelevant.

Presentation is important - if you want to be heard, present in a way 
that gets people to listen.

Make people defensive, and you're not likely to affect change.

Unless we're talking about a violent overthrow of the pov-ray project.

> There have been plenty of people here, over the years, who have shoved
> my nose in the pile of code that I've deposited on the carpet, and
> metaphorically beat me with the rolled up newspaper until the answers
> began to glimmer through the thinner parts of my thick skull.
> Polite?  Tactful?  Probably not.
> Effective?   Seemed to be.
> I've made it this far, and don't tend to ask _as many_ completely
> idiotic questions.

Which is fine for you.  Ever wonder how it would have worked out if 
people had treated you with respect instead?  I know which I prefer.

>> It's one thing to ask for an update and to be polite about it.  You've
>> been anything but.  I've known Chris for a very long time, and while
>> he's being too nice to say "hey, you're being a dick about this", I
>> don't appreciate people being dicks to my friends.
> 
> Maybe he's "being a dick", and maybe he's not.

No, he's being a dick.  No question about it in my mind.

> Maybe he's old and cranky and cantankerous, and having a bad blood-sugar
> day, or it's hot and muggy, and he ran out of both coffee and patience.

Conversation's been going on for 19 days, and his attitude hasn't 
changed.  This isn't a one-off, and he's not apologised for being rude, 
other than the initial warning (which means he *knew* he was being a 
dick, and didn't care enough to rewrite his questions so he wouldn't need 
the disclaimer).

> But he is being assertive and trying to keep this on the front burner.
> If he was a boss or a supervisor (whose underlings generally consider
> them dicks) he'd "just be doing his job."

I am a boss/supervisor, and I can tell you, that is not a great way to 
motivate people if you want them to be loyal to you.

> Sooner or later, someone is going to come by with a sword and take a
> mighty swing at the Gordian Knot.
> It seems to me that jr might simply be willing to volunteer to be the
> "lightning rod" that others aren't willing to be.
> A rule of thumb in complaints and customer service is that for every
> complaint, there are 300 others just like it that haven't been
> communicated.

And if he had simply started by saying "I have some questions about the 
status of the project" and then laid them out without being a dick about 
it, we could've had a productive discussion.

Instead, he was a dick about it, and didn't get answers.  Gee, I wonder 
why?  Could it be that the people who could provide him with answers 
didn't want a second round of being publicly berated by someone who 
"cares about the project" - but not enough to be respectful to the people 
actually in charge of the project?  I know for me, if I were volunteering 
my time to run a project and had not had the time to do it, the last 
thing that would motivate me to respond would be someone referring to me 
as the "ill head", or telling me to pull my thumb out of my ass and DO 
SOMETHING.

I'd be much more inclined to tell them to take a long walk off a short 
pier (and that would have been ME being polite about it).

>> I didn't see you step up in the past 13 years after Lutz handed off
>> Moray to the POV-Ray project and say "how can I help facilitate getting
>> this code reviewed and made available?".
> 
> My own impression of the state of that was: "we're not allowed to have
> the code", which we'd need to do, to see / review it - because it
> proprietary or whatever - and so it's kind of a catch-22.

Yes, that's pretty much where I was as well in my understanding - that 
there were legal issues.  The code was (to my knowledge, based on public 
info) turned over, but that it needed a scrub before it could be made 
public.

Since there are legal issues involved, a lawyer would probably need to be 
involved at some point.

>> If you have too delicate a disposition to be called out when you're
>> being a jerk, perhaps you should just go away.  At least be adult
>> enough to own the fact that you have all the tact of a brick through a
>> window.
> 
> Regardless of his level of impatience or tact, I would respectfully
> submit that the issues raised still stand on their own, and so perhaps
> we can pretend that Princess Penelope Petunia batted her eyelashes and
> curtsied while demurely asking that a teensy favor of hers be granted.

No, he needs to understand that being rude is not acceptable.

That doesn't mean we can't talk about the issues he raises.  Just that he 
needs to acknowledge his lack of tact.

> Also, in all fairness, he / we were promised an answer/response, and jr
> seems to be abiding by the Russian proverb - an admonition to "trust,
> but verify."

I await those answers as well.  Patiently.  Life right now is not exactly 
straightforward for a lot of people, and we don't know if Chris or others 
whom we're waiting on have had other priorities take over.

> The world is full of plenty of dicks who don't want to answer questions
> "because of the tone that they were asked in", even when it's in every
> way proper to hold them accountable.  Damned citizen taxpayers being
> jerks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99IeGqIIHj4
> 
> So - let's not be THAT way either.

Accountability in open development projects is a bit different than in 
the business world.  I'm sure, though, that you're aware of that.

> 
> Now, ruffled feathers or not, there are still some of us sitting out
> here in the Peanut Gallery who are interested in answers, information,
> history, opinions, and other levels and forms of discussion on the
> topics raised about POV-Ray, and Moray.
> 
> Please, and a preemptive Thank You.

As I said, I'm interested as well in the answers to these questions.  
Were I able to help out, I'd be asking similar questions, but I know what 
my life is like, and I try not to presume about what others' lives entail 
in order to fulfill my needs.

It seems that these questions could all be asked with a modicum of 
respect, and that's all I'm suggesting here.  It's possible to ask hard 
questions without being an ass about it.



-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

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