On 11-8-2013 14:30, Warp wrote:
> clipka <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:
>> It should /not/ be administered to people who are unwilling to accept
>> that procedure; first of all I doubt that /any/ vaccination is without
>> risk - if only because in the course of production of the vaccine
>> something might go wrong, causing people to be infected with polio
>> rather than vaccinated against it. How many polio victims are you
>> willing to risk in order to protect others?
>
> And once again we come back to the question: Do you think the smallpox
> vaccination program (which was sometimes administered via borderline
> force), which has saved millions of lives, was a bad thing?

> If the same western culture zeitgeist had been in place in the 60's and
> 70's as today, smallpox would very probably still exist, killing countless
> innocent people who wouldn't have to die from that disease.
>

Many people are not going to believe you anymore when you wear a white 
coat and say you do it because it is good for them. You can not do that 
in any developed country (like for measles in the Netherlands) and also 
not in a developing country. In the latter you can be sure that someone 
will point out that it is just another form of imperialism (often to 
gain something himself, but that is not the point) and there will be 
people that will listen and act accordingly.

Or they have other (mixed) reasons:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2255970/Seven-Pakistan-aid-workers-murdered-new-polio-revenge-attack-Killings-blamed-Taliban-avenging-Osama-bin-Laden.html

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/16/pakistan-militants-kill-health-workers

Another disease we want to get rid of is AIDS, yet there are people that 
claim that AIDS was invented by the west to oppress Africa. That does 
not help an treatment and prevention program. If you try to force such a 
program on them they will retaliate. There is always a US embassy in the 
neighbourhood and if not they can pick victims from the tourists, aid 
workers and ex-pats.

Two years ago we had the bird flu disaster. I.e. there was no disaster. 
Still a couple of companies made good money from it. One side effect is 
that the WHO is in trouble now. Both financially and morally. Does not 
help either.

Several other wide spread campaigns suffered from unforeseen side 
effects (see e.g. clipka's mail and the CAST study). Flu vaccinations 
tend to induce fever is some people. On average less people die when you 
vaccinate, but some die that would still be alive if they had not taken 
the vaccination. So if the flu does not come or in a different shape, 
was it worth it? There are also reports of people dying from polio 
vaccinations. Not many, but OTOH nobody is going to gain reporting them 
anyway.

Large scale vaccinations and medications are a sort of Russian roulette, 
that the results were very positive in one case is no guarantee for the 
future. And there is the real danger of political side effects.

In conclusion:
Getting rid of polio was a good thing. Yet, the method used then, could 
not be applied now. Both because we think different about human rights 
now *and* because the people you would want to vaccinate are thinking 
different.
It is really a pity that reality is sometimes more complicated then one 
would like. Just shouting that reality should behave better and that the 
world would be a better place if we all lived in your simplistic world 
is not going to help. Sorry.

[let's see if you get to this point before starting to shout]
Can we now please get back to the points that Shay made when starting 
this threat?



-- 
Everytime the IT department forbids something that a researcher deems
necessary for her work there will be another hole in the firewall.

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