On 3/17/2012 11:43, Stephen wrote:
> I agree, mostly. (I am not taking a dig at Americans.) But mostly impli
es
> sometimes not, I think.

Sure. But to the extent that it isn't, it's recognised as a bad thing.

It's like me saying "bribery is illegal" and you saying "but people still
 
bribe politicians."  Sure, but that's not a *good* thing. That doesn't me
an 
we want to condone it.

>>> Which politician would think of publicly admitting to condoning abort
ion?
>>
>> Any politician who isn't running for office next term. Having free
>> speech doesn't mean you're not responsible for the results of what you
 say.
>
> Fair point. But why?

Why what?

>>> I know what it means but incitement to riot, abuse, offend or commit 
a
>>> crime
>>> is, in my opinion, generally wrong.
>>
>> Abuse? Offend? I don't get to say something you don't want to hear?
>>
> Does that include bullying?

Some people are certainly hoping to make it so. I think we would have to 

distinguish mocking from bullying, since when I was a kid, bullying someo
ne 
involved beating them up, not just calling them names.

>> Just like playing D&D is fine
>> until you actually go out in the real world and start beheading dwarve
s.
>
> Not the same thing.

Ah, OK. So now, tell me why they're not the same thing. That's the point.
 :-)

The problem is that once you open the door and say "Well, we don't want 
people 'bullying' dwarves", you start getting the sort of nonsense where 

people publishing D&D books get arrested.

>> > Wasn’t Matt Giwer banned from this site
>>> for expressing verbal abuse? And were you not a member of TAG at the 
time
>>> when it was an unanimously supported action to do it?
>>
>> This is a private forum. It's no more censorship to say "you can't say

>> that on the forum I run" than it is to say "you can't have a party in 
my
>> house" means you're violating the right to assembly.
>>
>
> With this you miss my point.

I still don't see your point. Anyway, I think Warp answered you.

I'll support your right to say that niggers are stupid. I'll also support
 
the black guy kicking you out of his party for saying so.

>> I disagree. I think free speech limited to speech is fine. As soon as
>> you start saying "Free speech is ok as long as nobody objects", then
>> it's not free speech.
>
> But I am not saying free speech is OK.

So you want to regulate *all* speech? Or do you want to have a pre-define
d 
list of things you're allowed to talk about, and the opinions you're allo
wed 
to express about those topics?

>>>> When only "politically correct" opinions are legal, that's not free
>>>> speech. That's totalitarianism.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That is a different kettle of fish.
>>
>> Why? Didn't you just say that speech that offends shouldn't be free?
>>
> Is that not a straw man?

Not to my knowledge.

> I will take a different tack to try to explain what I mean.
> Should I be able to say that Joe Bloggs is a paedophile when he is not?


Free speech allows you to express whatever opinions you like. It doesn't 

allow you to publish lies about private citizens. You're certainly allowe
d 
to say "I think Joe Bloggs is a paedophile."

> Having free speech would allow me to do so as I can say whatever I want
. The
> laws of slander would be unworkable if you were allowed free speech.
> Which, I suppose, depends on your definition of free speech. What is yo
urs?

You're allowed to say anything that's true, certainly. If it's phrased as
 an 
opinion, you're allowed to express that opinion. I believe in the USA you
're 
even allowed to publish lies about a public figure, on the grounds that a
 
public figure has a forum under which to express the truth. You publishin
g a 
newspaper article that incorrectly says they are a pedophile about someon
e 
who has no easy way of responding in the same forum is what's slander or 

libel. But in the USA, truth is an absolute defense against the accusatio
n 
of slander or libel. (Unlike the UK, as I understand it. You wouldn't be 

allowed to say Bloggs is a pedophile even if it's true in the UK.)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Oh no! We're out of code juice!"
   "Don't panic. There's beans and filters
    in the cabinet."

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