On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 22:30:13 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>>> Right. Well knowing what the command switches are isn't going to help
>>> me configure Apache, is it?
>>
>> Yes, it won't.  But if you want to configure apache, you read the
>> Apache documentation.
> 
> ...which will only tell you how to do it via the configuration file
> interface which you keep insisting it isn't necessary to touch.

Which is why you use the HELP button.

>> Or if you've got the yast http module installed, you can try yast2
>> http- server longhelp for command-line help.
> 
> Which presumable again just tells you about command switches, not how to
> configure Apache using YaST.

Try it.  It's more than that, again, pay attention to those who actually 
have used it instead of making assumptions and then declaring those 
assumptions to be true, regardless of how true you believe them to be.

BTW, you do know the world is not in fact flat, right?  Just checking. ;)

>>> If somebody told you that the Earth is in fact flat, would you take
>>> the time to sit down and have a rational conversation with them? Or
>>> would you just be like "psssh, yeah RIGHT! Bye..."
>>
>> So, to carry the analogy out, you believe the "Earth is flat" and
>> you're not willing to be convinced otherwise?
> 
> More like you keep insisting that the Earth is flat, and then act all
> surprised when I don't immediately believe you.

Except that I'm telling you the Earth is round, and you're insisting that 
it's flat.  (Your ideas are not based on current implementation; if they 
were, you'd see that they're incorrect).

>> Um, nobody's saying that.  What I'm saying is that if you ask questions
>> on relevant forums, you can actually get help to configure it and learn
>> how it works.
> 
> I know how it works - not very well. (In varing degrees, anyway.) What's
> to ask?

*sigh*

You don't know how it works.  You have an opinion about how well it 
works.  How well it works != how it works.

>> Unless you'd rather just bitch about how impossible everything is.
> 
> Let's be clear about this: I said that package management can be a pain
> sometimes. WHICH IS TRUE. I didn't say it was *impossible* to install
> anything. I just said sometimes it's very difficult to make it do the
> correct thing.
> 
> I pointed out a small deficiency in a piece of software, and everybody
> is like "no, you're just too stupid to work it correctly". As if no
> software ever has deficiencies...

Yes, package management can be a pain sometimes.  But you've also claimed 
that it's impossible to learn how to manage apache using YaST.  It isn't, 
as evidenced by the thousands of people who *do just that*.

>> But you seem to enjoy learning new things.  Which means more than just
>> reading books and websites - occasionally it means talking to people
>> who know more about the topic than you do.
>>
>> See how that works?
> 
> Reading documentation can be quite enlightening - or not. It depends on
> how good the documentation is. IME, asking people is almost always an
> utter waste of time.

Yeah, again, because I've only spent 20 years answering questions on 
online forums, and I *love* wasting my time.

I accept that your experience has not been so good.  I'm telling you it 
isn't always that way and that you could certainly try over in the 
openSUSE forums when you have questions about openSUSE.  I tell you this 
because we have a significant number of users who *have* received help 
and *have* been able to make things work after being told how to use the 
software.

You continuing to deny that you could ever possibly get help in an online 
forum by asking questions, when you're told that there is a place you can 
ask questions and generally people are VERY HAPPY when they get 
answers....well, it's just silly.

Your experience can change, but only if you continue to try asking 
questions.  Giving up because you've had little to no success in the past 
isn't ever going to get you out of that rut.

Just like searching for a job - if you stop searching, nobody's ever 
going to offer you something better.

>> When I pointed out that, hey, there are some tools (some of which are
>> in fact standardised across different distributions) that mean you
>> *don't* have to edit text files, you responded with incredulity.
> 
> The standard Unix philosophy is that programs are controlled mainly via
> the command line and via textual configuration files. Does every single
> piece of software available for Linux follow this model? No. Do the vast
> majority of them follow this model? Yes.

*No*.  That's my point.  Low level system stuff, yes; end-user 
applications DO NOT DO THIS.

>> My point is that while hard-core *nix utilities do tend to be that way,
>> it's a mistake to think that that's the *only* way Linux programs are
>> created - as a front-end to some cryptic CLI interface.
> 
> OK, fair enough.

*Finally*, I think we're making progress. ;)

Jim

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