On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 22:17:52 +0200, andrel wrote:

> On 27-9-2011 20:20, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 16:32:18 +0200, andrel wrote:
> 
>>> Just as long as it is within their field. Let them write a grant
>>> application to get money to pay their training program and living for
>>> half a year with only 15% granted and see if they still like to
>>> compete.
>>
>> That's not the way it works, though.  You work in academia IIRC, are
>> you saying you don't compete for grant money for research you're
>> working on?
> 
> No I do, and I hate it, and so does almost everyone I know. (meaning
> that someone I know might like it, but that I never noticed. Put another
> way: everyone that said something about it in my company hates it). We
> are forced by others to do so, even though we know the system does not
> work and can never work. At least not until someone invents a time
> machine. So yes, I am competing, but I am still not competitive and
> actually there is no competition either. (there are arbitrary numbers
> attached to the entries, combined in an arbitrary way and then an
> arbitrary threshold is set in order spend the budget but no more).

Well, I would suggest that there is a competition and that you are 
competing - there are a finite amount of money available, right?  And 
that money goes to the person or team that makes the best case for 
receiving it?

>>>> Right now, we're discussing competing ideas - in a way, this
>>>> discussion is a form of competition. ;)
>>>
>>> And I have a bit of a cold so I am competing with a lot of small
>>> things too. Sorry, what was the point?
>>
>> You've said that you're not competitive by nature, but in fact, you do
>> compete even if you don't call it that.
> 
> It is not a competition if there are no rules.

Sure it is.  I've never seen a definition of competition that says there 
have to be rules (though ultimately even if there are no rules, the 
'rule' is to 'be the best' or 'be the top').

>>> I vaguely remember someone in the beginning of this discussion
>>> mentioning that competitiveness is cultural. It was a long time ago,
>>> so I might be misremembering.
>>
>> No, I remember someone making that statement, too.  I thought it was
>> you. :)
> 
> What? Oh yes indeed, it was apparently even the first thing I said.

LOL

>> LOL!  Many Americans do - as a society, we tend to be overconfident and
>> tend to underachieve.  There was a study done recently about how
>> students around the world perform on exams, with Americans scoring
>> somewhere in the middle on actual score, but their confidence in
>> answering the exam questions was #1.  So, we're #1 and thinking we're
>> #1.
> 
> Which might annoy the hell out of an international group if all but one
> realize that the American does not know what he is talking about.

Absolutely.  It's one of the things I dislike about the American 
'persona'.  We're not a homogenous people in any way, but I think 
especially in our level of conceit.  Some here are *far* more conceited 
than others, and they aren't afraid to tell the whole world that they're 
wrong.

They forget that our democracy is only about 200 years old, and there are 
far, far older civilizations in the world that have much more 
experience.  We're collectively like the teenager at the stage of "I know 
everything and my parents no NOTHING".  But individually, we're not.

>>>> I think there are some like that.  I know in my current situation,
>>>> I'd prefer tomorrow not be the same as today - I'd rather be
>>>> employed. ;)
>>>
>>> But if you have a family you would prefer them to be there tomorrow
>>> too. If you had enough money to buy food, you'd prefer that to be the
>>> case tomorrow too. Still having two arms would be a bonus. Being
>>> employed or not is just a mere detail. ;)
>>
>> Fair points, though employed/not employed - at least right now - is
>> kinda a big detail.
> 
> It is the focus of your attention, which might not be the same thing.

Possibly.  I know I can manage paying the bills for another 6 months or 
so by dipping into our reserves, but I'd rather not do that.

Jim

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