On 9-7-2011 21:33, Charles C wrote:
> andrel<byt### [at] gmailcom>  wrote:
>> On 8-7-2011 8:04, Charles C wrote:
>>> andrel<byt### [at] gmailcom>   wrote:
>>>> Why is it offensive?
>>>> I don't know the guy and I have only watched this part of the show, but
>>>> to me it sounds like a sarcastic joke. What he implied is that TV and
>>>> society used to be much more racist and that he is glad that has changed.
>>>> Sure, if you take the exact same words and put it in a speach with a
>>>> racist context it would be offensive. In this context, in the way he
>>>> says it and with the reaction of the other guy, it clearly isn't. So
>>>> again: why do you think it is offensive?
>>>
>>>
>>> I took it as a cynical joke on the current (not past) state of race in the US.
>>
>> No that can't be, because evidently there is a black man hosting that show.
>>
>>> I think it shows he has a low view of the general public and/or the studio or
>>> television network.   I'm not sure that having a low view of the public is even
>>> what bothers me.  Basically it sounded accusational to me.   To me, being
>>> accused out-of-hand actually would offend me.
>>
>> to me it is the sort of things people say who know one another well. I
>> do that sort of things all the time. Particularly with women, (not many
>> people of african origins around, I have trouble recognizing Jews, but
>> luckily we have some muslims in the lab). At least a couple of times per
>> week I say something that out of context would be sexist or racist.
>> Often it has the same undertone as your example: 'I am glad things
>> changed and you can be here doing what you do, and you do it well'. So
>> don't ask for a written transcript of all my conversations, you might
>> feel offended.
>> In the same vain, I have said things in the past to our mascot that were
>> totally misunderstood by people listening in. I checked later with him
>> and he seemed just as surprised as I was.
>> As a rule, I would say that if a person A says something to a person B
>> about a group that B is evidenly a member of
>> (african/woman/ginger/dwarf) in a light-hearted way and B smiles, it was
>> meant ironic and both understood that. Taking it seriously as an
>> outsider will meet with surprise and incomprehension by both A and B.
>>
>> --
>> Apparently you can afford your own dictator for less than 10 cents per
>> citizen per day.
>
>
> You have to understand that Tavis's comment was not about black men or a black
> man. It was about a third party.

I think I got that. ;)

> Tavis is "A" and Cedric is "B" but Cedric is
> not a member of "C".  "C" would be whoever might be included in the group
> labeled "they" in Tavis's comment."C" was the subject of Tavis's comment.

"C" being the intersection of the set of everybody thinking that if you 
leave money in the vicinity of a black man, he will steal it, and the 
set of TV bosses. Right?

> If someone were to think that he or she might be in Tavis's "they" ("C") then he
> or she might be offended to think that Tavis has such a low and pre-conceived
> view of him or her.

I think that should be "If someone were to think that Tavis thinks that 
he or she might be in "C" then...".
When someone is offended by something he or she thinks somebody else 
thinks, we are dealing with somebody trying desperately to find an 
excuse to be offended. No logical reasoning will keep that person from 
this state of being offended because there is no way to disprove 
somebody did think something.

>
> If Tavis were talking about something long ago / past, then there would be no
> need to feel "impressed."   Consider this statement: "I'm just impressed that
> your house has electricity."   It could be a compliment if household electricity
> were brand new.  It can easily be derogatory since electricity is....not new.

Sure, but in this case both men are old enough to have experienced open 
and publicly supported racism.

> Statements like:
> "I'm impressed with how far technology has come."
> "I'm impressed with how far society has come."
> .....are not derogatory because they acknowledge a long change over time.
>
> Statements like:
> "I'm impressed that [fill in blank with anything well below normal
> expectations]."
> ......tend to be derogatory

or just plain ironic/sarcastic, as in this case.

> because they belittle, condescend....



-- 
Apparently you can afford your own dictator for less than 10 cents per 
citizen per day.

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