Nigel Stewart wrote:

> >  I do not personally like the example you gave and think
> > it unnecessarily makes the scene language harder to use and
> > understand.
> 
>         I'm working on the assumption that hand-editing is
>         not the only way to describe a 3D scene.  XML I think
>         is editable, but certainly not optimised for this task.
>         It is however, far more generic and flexible.  XML would
>         never be a replacement for POV script, only an alternative.

So if I understand you correctly I will be able to describe my Pov scenes
exactly as I do now without having to use TAGs and all of the other format
styles that come with XML ?

If XML is implemented how will it be incorporated into POV-Ray. Will it
be internal to the program or an external alternative? If external how
will it communicate with POV-Ray ? If POV-Ray has to have two scene
description languages how much baggage will it carry with it ? Is there
any parsing speed advantages with XML ? How much ?

> > > For someone with a "povray.org" email address, you are
> > > behaving in a very entrenched, "old guard" kind of way.
> 
> > When I am speaking in the news groups I do so as myself and not
> > representing the views of the POV-Team - which I am not even a
> > member of.
> 
>         Ken, perhaps I came across too strongly, but
>         given that you started the thread as a point
>         of discussion, I thought you should be more
>         neutral.  Having a "povray.org" email
>         address is both a privelege and a responsibility.
>         There is still a perception of "official
>         viewpoint" even if it unintended.

 I never attempt to decieve and am careful to be myself. I understand
that there is a certain amount of both privelege and a responsibility
but I also have every right, no every obligation, to speak my own mind.
When I am Mr. TAG or Mr. Linkmaster I sign my messages as such and conduct
myself accordingly. The rest of the time I am going to stay just me.

>         Creating a lynch-mob environment will simply
>         scare programmers away from making any kind
>         of suggestion.  Clearly my perspective is quite
>         foreign to many POV people, but it doesn't
>         mean that I am allowed to be as critical of
>         POV users, as users seem to be critical of any
>         new or different idea.

I try to be subjective in my criticisms and seldom attempt to encite
a riot. I am also not afraid to speak my mind when I think it is called
for. I certainly don't think that all of our visitors hang on my every
word nor should they. Those who respect me I think do so because they
know me for who I am and not because of my e-mail address. Let's give
the visitors here a little credit for their intellegence.
 
> > As far as entrenched and old guard let me point out as a POV-Ray
> > user who is not only proficient with the program, but also as one
> > who is satisfied with it's current language structure, I have every
> > right to defend it.
> 
>         You're not only defending what you're like, but you're
>         attacking the unknown.  These tactics are not fair,
>         and not productive.

The unknown can be a scary place but it's not like I am wearing blinders
either. Sometimes I take the "are you nutz?" stance just to see if I can
get the person making the suggestion to offer a little more clarity about
what they are proposing. We do get some pretty strange suggestions here
on ocassion and you really have to drag the information out of people if
you want to find out what they are really talking about.
 
> > I think some of the changes being proposed
> > jeopardize the ease of use I enjoy with the program
> 
>         No, they don't.

If I have to hand code XML then yes they do !
 
>         I keep hearing this threat on the povray newsgroups
>         of "alienating the user base" - but I don't quite
>         understand it's basis.  We certainly need a better
>         model of interaction than this polarisation.

What polarization ? With as many people as we have using this
program, for so many differnt reasons, there is no polarazation
present at all. If we (we as in the pov world not ME) change
POV-Ray to support XML to please you, will I, and the other hand
coders be pleased ? Will the modelling programmers such as the
author Moray be pleased with having to recode his entire program
that he has been developing for 6 years supporting the current
syntax ? Will all of the utility writters want to go back and
rework their programs to use the new XML language ? Will I be
able to render all of my older scenes ? Who gets hurt and who
gains ? These are serious questions !

I guess that once I understand the answer to my fisrt question in
this message the sooner I will be able to either support XML or
not. And just because I do not support it does not mean that
others will not. If I decide to personaly not support it then
I will stay out of the way and let others do as they wish with
the idea. If Pov changes, and I don't like it, I'll just quit
using the program. Others may do the same.

-- 
Ken Tyler -  1300+ Povray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/

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