POV-Ray : Newsgroups : povray.off-topic : whither POV-Ray ?? Server Time
25 May 2022 05:46:34 EDT (-0400)
  whither POV-Ray ?? (Message 41 to 50 of 157)  
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From: Chris Cason
Subject: Re: whither POV-Ray ??
Date: 22 Jul 2020 03:14:02
Message: <5f17e73a@news.povray.org>
ok so it seems I'm not quick enough for some. This is because I was
taking the time to communicate with enough people to be sure that I
could present a clear set of facts that correctly reflect the current
situation, as giving out wrong information is worse than saying nothing
at all.

whatever. I'll keep this short and to the point.

internal discussions showed that we don't currently have the manpower to
release 3.8 in a form that meets our past standards for stability and
backwards compatibility. I also made the decision that I would step back
from managing releases and ask someone else to handle that. I see my
role, after 25 years of doing this, as more administrative with the
following caveat:

I have been involved with POV since version 1 and worked with most of
the original authors - people who I have great respect for and who
surpass me in many respects. Collectively there have been tens of
thousands of hours put into this project and it has achieved a
reputation for quality and stability. I will NOT stand by and allow a
3.x release out that does not meet that same standard and if I do so I
will be letting them all down. This is a responsibility I take seriously
and I will not relent.

As long as 3.7 continues to operate as designed on modern operating
systems and CPU's it's not broken and there is no pressing need to
replace it. Yes I'd like to see 3.8 out. Yes we need help to do so. I
had decided to move development discussions to one of these groups so it
is in public and ask for assistance from users; in particular as no-one
in the current team is able to take on the job of managing the release I
was going to ask for volunteers from here.

I was prepared to ignore the negative and insulting tone of many posts
in this thread for the benefit of the project but this is enough, as it
has reminded me of one of the reasons I dislike managing open-source
projects: settling the squabbles and disagreements between contributors.
No matter whose side I take and for whatever reason someone will be
unhappy and I'll be the 'bad guy'. Looking at what I see expressed here
just reminds me I'm in for a heap more of this shit and at almost 60
years old I've had enough.

*IF* I find someone who is qualified to lead the release I'll happily
hand that of to them (and anyone reading this who thinks they are and
who know me well enough to know I'd consider them is invited to email -
you don't need to be a C++ developer).

As for the website: again I was going to post a longer explanation but
I'll simply say the box it's running on is 15 years old, on its last
legs, difficult to manage/upgrade as it's in the US and I'm not and no
longer has a working IPKVM, and does not run a CMS to speak of. I'm
loath to touch it in any meaningful way until I have it replaced. I have
recently spent several thousand dollars bringing fiber into my office
and purchasing some proper server hardware to serve as a complete
replacement and at THAT point with a real CMS and up-to-date software I
would be asking for assistance in managing the content, but not before.

And before anyone asks "why not a VM in the cloud", (a) I'm old-school
and prefer real hardware, and (b) you guys wanted to keep the NNTP
server and there's no way that software (which was built for FreeBSD v4)
will run on anything modern. I will have to make special arrangements to
keep it working on a separate machine.

Finally, about Moray: some points are valid. I wish I'd gotten it out
before now. However the source still needs auditing. Over the years I'd
had volunteers work on it (then give up) and even hired a dev once (who
then ghosted me). It's working OK I think and I was in communication
with Lutz as recently as a few months ago about finishing off
integration (we both decided we don't do enough C++ anymore to handle it
ourselves, though it's likely I could if I really wanted to). FWIW in
case anyone cares Lutz has recently added STL import/export.

I was also considering handing the source off to a volunteer to audit,
sort out some library issues, and generally polish it if they were
willing: if a reader considers they are qualified and will actually
FINISH the job please contact me and we'll talk about it. But I want to
make one thing clear to those who seem to think that I somehow 'owe' the
community a Moray release. Moray was NOT 'given' to the POV-Ray project.
I purchased it from the author. It's my property and while I have stated
I will release it under an open-source license up and until the time I
do I would ask you treat this matter with the same respect as you would
have treated it if it were still shareware owned by Lutz - you wouldn't
write him and bitch about him not releasing the source or making it
free, so don't do it to me.


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From: Thorsten
Subject: Re: whither POV-Ray ??
Date: 22 Jul 2020 09:07:39
Message: <5f183a1b@news.povray.org>
On 21.07.2020 22:31, Jim Henderson wrote:
> The world doesn't revolve around your wants and desires, and putting
> together a laundry list of complaints isn't really a great way to
> motivate people to do what you want them to do.

And this really is one of the most annoying problems with open source 
software. The endless complaints from people who will never contribute. 
It wears practically everybody down over the years. As other projects 
have shown even those that do "get paid" for enduring it.

Thorsten


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From: Thorsten
Subject: Re: whither POV-Ray ??
Date: 22 Jul 2020 09:14:17
Message: <5f183ba9$1@news.povray.org>
On 22.07.2020 01:39, jr wrote:
>> And if you read a little about the history, you'd know that the code
>> *can't*  be published publicly because there is proprietary code that
>> needs to be scrubbed.
 >
> _parts_  of the code.  no reason why the remainder could not have been worked on,
> and no reason why a functional specification of the proprietary code could not
> have been published.

And that specification comes out of thin air? And the splitting of the 
code between proprietary and available for publication comes out of thin 
air, too? - The answer is simple: No and no.


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From: Ash Holsenback
Subject: Re: whither POV-Ray ??
Date: 22 Jul 2020 09:18:02
Message: <5f183c8a@news.povray.org>
On 7/22/20 9:07 AM, Thorsten wrote:
> On 21.07.2020 22:31, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> The world doesn't revolve around your wants and desires, and putting
>> together a laundry list of complaints isn't really a great way to
>> motivate people to do what you want them to do.
> 
> And this really is one of the most annoying problems with open source 
> software. The endless complaints from people who will never contribute. 
> It wears practically everybody down over the years. As other projects 
> have shown even those that do "get paid" for enduring it.

yup


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From: Thorsten
Subject: Re: whither POV-Ray ??
Date: 22 Jul 2020 09:49:38
Message: <5f1843f2$1@news.povray.org>
On 22.07.2020 00:38, Bald Eagle wrote:
> My own impression of the state of that was: "we're not allowed to have the
> code", which we'd need to do, to see / review it - because it proprietary or
> whatever - and so it's kind of a catch-22.

In order to even get it to compile again, Lutz had to do the conversion 
to Visual C(++) 2010. Various people have had access to the code over 
time because they volunteered to take a look or were/are part of the 
POV-Team. This includes me (I actually still have access because I have 
a local copy and always had access to the perforce server we used before 
github).

The code is in a fairly good state, but it is written for a really not 
very standard-compliant old Visual C, using MFC, and to make matters 
worse using really "old" ways of doing things in the Windows GUI world. 
What many, many users do not realise is how bad the Win32 GUI 
programming was actually broken by Microsoft, and how many toolkits, 
libraries, and abstraction one had to throw over it to make a program 
like Moray possible.

So as long as Moray was commercial, you could just buy a license to such 
code, in particular the whole toolbar in Moray, integrate and modify 
said code under that license, and distribute it in binary form. So far, 
so good. But it does not get you anywhere if you have to convert 
commercial code to open source. Then you actually, for the sake of 
copyright law (and common sense), have to check where that code went and 
if you didn't move things here or there. Then you have to take it out, 
and do a clean room rewrite, or actually replace it with something current.

Want an estimate? - It would take 4-5 month full-time (but I am not 
offering full-time), 40h/week and my going rate is 120 Euro/hour (plus 
VAT) for freelance work*.

Thorsten


* After all taxes, rent, insurance, etc about 40% of that get into one's 
pocket in Germany, btw.


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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: whither POV-Ray ??
Date: 22 Jul 2020 11:32:18
Message: <5f185c02@news.povray.org>
On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 15:07:38 +0200, Thorsten wrote:

> On 21.07.2020 22:31, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> The world doesn't revolve around your wants and desires, and putting
>> together a laundry list of complaints isn't really a great way to
>> motivate people to do what you want them to do.
> 
> And this really is one of the most annoying problems with open source
> software. The endless complaints from people who will never contribute.
> It wears practically everybody down over the years. As other projects
> have shown even those that do "get paid" for enduring it.

Yup, and that sense of "entitlement" (which is entirely undeserved) that 
some users have that the project managers/developers *owe* the users 
anything.

People who work on code for free do it because it gives them joy and is 
fun.  Dealing with a userbase of complainers and whiners (and I'm not 
meaning to say the entire userbase of POV-Ray is like this; all it takes 
is a few entitled loudmouthed jerks to ruin it for everyone; I know users 
who have left because of a few toxic people in the community) isn't fun.  
As we've seen from Chris' reply, that is just shitty to deal with, and 
not fun.  Why would *anyone* opt to put up with that kind of bullshit if 
they had the choice?

In a nutshell, we (the users) are owed exactly *nothing* from Chris or 
the development team.  He has managed this project for 25 years (by his 
own reckoning; I'd have said closer to 30 by my own), and *we* owe *him* 
some gratitude for what he has done.

It's rare for *anyone* to stick with a single development project for 
that long, much less retain a passion for it.

The same goes for Moray (which I see he explained in very clear terms).  
He *purchased* the codebase from Lutz.  He owns it, and it's his to do 
with as he pleases.

As for me:  I've offered to step up and help out with content work when 
he gets the CMS ready to go.  I can't (and won't) do it alone - my time 
is *extremely limited*.  I'll start a separate discussion nearer the time 
Chris and I work out that that transition can happen, and I'll be 
expecting to have some folks from the community step up to help out.  If 
that doesn't happen, the job will take longer or it simply won't get 
done. Anyone who wants to bitch at me for the speed with which it isn't 
happening will be welcome to get your hands dirty and dig in and help - 
otherwise, I'll be telling you in no uncertain terms where you can shove 
your complaints.  To paraphrase Chris, I'm nearly 50 years old myself, 
and I don't have time or energy for dealing with the whining self-
entitled jerks who think that they are owed *anything* by the people 
doing the actual work. You want the project to have a future?  Pitch in 
and help out.

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw


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From: jr
Subject: Re: whither POV-Ray ??
Date: 22 Jul 2020 12:30:01
Message: <web.5f1868f117b7b05f4d00143e0@news.povray.org>
hi,

Chris Cason <del### [at] deletethistoopovrayorg> wrote:
> ok so it seems I'm not quick enough for some. This is because I was
> taking the time to communicate with enough people to be sure that I
> could present a clear set of facts that correctly reflect the current
> situation, as giving out wrong information is worse than saying nothing
> at all.

the "some" refers to me, I take it.  (I do prefer directness, always.  :-))

well I waited a full working week plus one day for you to follow up.  just a
one-line reminder (like you wrote on the 12th) would have made a difference.

(and the irony is, had no one replied to my post to TdG (21st), the thread would
have stopped there and then.  with "misgivings", for sure, but ended)

> whatever. I'll keep this short and to the point.
> ...
> I was prepared to ignore the negative and insulting tone of many posts
> in this thread for the benefit of the project but this is enough, as it
> has reminded me of one of the reasons I dislike managing open-source
> projects: settling the squabbles and disagreements between contributors.
> No matter whose side I take and for whatever reason someone will be
> unhappy and I'll be the 'bad guy'.  ...

that goes with the territory though, the person "wearing the hat" takes the
flak.  (but I can see that 25 years take their toll)

> ...
> As for the website: again I was going to post a longer explanation but
> I'll simply say the box it's running on is 15 years old, on its last
> legs, difficult to manage/upgrade as it's in the US and I'm not and no
> longer has a working IPKVM, and does not run a CMS to speak of. I'm
> loath to touch it in any meaningful way until I have it replaced.  ...

good to know, and does explain the not-news section and more.

> ...
> Finally, about Moray: some points are valid. I wish I'd gotten it out
> before now. However the source still needs auditing. Over the years I'd
> had volunteers work on it (then give up) and even hired a dev once (who
> then ghosted me). It's working OK I think and I was in communication
> with Lutz as recently as a few months ago about finishing off
> integration (we both decided we don't do enough C++ anymore to handle it
> ourselves, though it's likely I could if I really wanted to). FWIW in
> case anyone cares Lutz has recently added STL import/export.
>
> I was also considering handing the source off to a volunteer to audit,
> sort out some library issues, and generally polish it if they were
> willing: if a reader considers they are qualified and will actually
> FINISH the job please contact me and we'll talk about it.

seems a shame that the conversion of Moray[*] has turned into a "never-ending
story".

[*] have never used it, but, based on others's opinions, had hopes to see a
modeller for GNU/Linux which works hand-in-glove with POV-Ray.

> But I want to
> make one thing clear to those who seem to think that I somehow 'owe' the
> community a Moray release. Moray was NOT 'given' to the POV-Ray project.
> I purchased it from the author. It's my property and while I have stated
> I will release it under an open-source license up and until the time I
> do I would ask you treat this matter with the same respect as you would
> have treated it if it were still shareware owned by Lutz - you wouldn't
> write him and bitch about him not releasing the source or making it
> free, so don't do it to me.

I can only speak for myself, but paying for a tool one wants to use is
expected/normal.

(and that extends, of course.  I remember mention of willingness to help with
POV-Ray[*] by taking out subscription and or purchasing content, in previous
threads in the newsgroups, but you probably did not read those.
[*] and yes, not being able to offer worthwhile _practical_ help and being
reduced to offering money does .. not feel very good)

but anyway, thank you for providing a little insight wrt near future.


regards, jr.


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From: jr
Subject: Re: whither POV-Ray ??
Date: 22 Jul 2020 12:30:01
Message: <web.5f18692f17b7b05f4d00143e0@news.povray.org>
hi,

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 19:39:05 -0400, jr wrote:
>
> > Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 17:41:25 -0400, jr wrote:
> >> ...

agreeing, as you do, with GBS, I've taken the liberty to address just a couple
of points.

>>> Yeah, I didn't read closely enough - the link showed up weird in my
>>> newsreader, and I missed it.  I'll own that error on my part.
....
>>
>> and here's what I do not understand.  you have admin privilege for the
>> news server, and the wiki, afaik, and, guessing here, for the main
>> website.  so why then, as I pointed out in my initial "rant", is the
>> news section so .. not news?
> I don't have admin privileges for the news server or the wiki (any
> more).  ...

(and a couple of posts later)
> ...  I'm another end user, just like you.  ...

so my understanding of NNTP is that once a post has "gone through", it will
remain on that server indefinitely (one can set a "destroy-by" date, but don't
think it's honoured by the servers).  therefore, without admin privileges (or an
indebted djinn) you, as "another end user", ought not to have been able to
withdraw your post (with haste :-)).  "end user"s like me have to, and do, stand
by our posts, the published record; handy that _you_ are able to .. alter the
record, the reality if you will.

you also wrote, replying to BE: "I am a boss/supervisor, and I can tell you,
that is not a great way to motivate people if you want them to be loyal to you."

my, my.  you like people's loyalty to you?  I suggest the word you're looking
for is "fealty".

personally, I have never worked for "the man", the organisations/companies paid
my bread, and that's where my loyalties lay.

fwiw, I do not think there's much mileage in a reply.  (particularly since you
cannot, apparently, think of new swear words)


no regards, jr.


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From: Thorsten
Subject: Re: whither POV-Ray ??
Date: 22 Jul 2020 12:40:35
Message: <5f186c03$1@news.povray.org>
On 22.07.2020 18:28, jr wrote:
> so my understanding of NNTP is that once a post has "gone through", it will
> remain on that server indefinitely

No, NNTP explicitly permits to cancel messages. While GUI clients limit 
this ability somewhat for the "simple" user, there is no check as long 
as the sender address matches. So you can actually cancel any message.

Thorsten


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From: Jim Henderson
Subject: Re: whither POV-Ray ??
Date: 22 Jul 2020 13:27:14
Message: <5f1876f2$1@news.povray.org>
On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 12:28:31 -0400, jr wrote:

> hi,
> 
> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 19:39:05 -0400, jr wrote:
>>
>> > Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> >> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 17:41:25 -0400, jr wrote:
>> >> ...
> 
> agreeing, as you do, with GBS, I've taken the liberty to address just a
> couple of points.
> 
>>>> Yeah, I didn't read closely enough - the link showed up weird in my
>>>> newsreader, and I missed it.  I'll own that error on my part.
> ....
>>>
>>> and here's what I do not understand.  you have admin privilege for the
>>> news server, and the wiki, afaik, and, guessing here, for the main
>>> website.  so why then, as I pointed out in my initial "rant", is the
>>> news section so .. not news?
>> I don't have admin privileges for the news server or the wiki (any
>> more).  ...
> 
> (and a couple of posts later)
>> ...  I'm another end user, just like you.  ...
> 
> so my understanding of NNTP is that once a post has "gone through", it
> will remain on that server indefinitely (one can set a "destroy-by"
> date, but don't think it's honoured by the servers).  therefore, without
> admin privileges (or an indebted djinn) you, as "another end user",
> ought not to have been able to withdraw your post (with haste :-)). 
> "end user"s like me have to, and do, stand by our posts, the published
> record; handy that _you_ are able to .. alter the record, the reality if
> you will.

Your understanding of NNTP is incorrect.  No admin privileges are needed 
to cancel your own posts or supersede them.  It's a common thing to do in 
the USENET world.

> you also wrote, replying to BE: "I am a boss/supervisor, and I can tell
> you, that is not a great way to motivate people if you want them to be
> loyal to you."
> 
> my, my.  you like people's loyalty to you?  I suggest the word you're
> looking for is "fealty".

Let me put it this way:  You don't know what the fuck you're talking 
about, and I don't owe you *any* explanation.

> personally, I have never worked for "the man", the
> organisations/companies paid my bread, and that's where my loyalties
> lay.
> 
> fwiw, I do not think there's much mileage in a reply.  (particularly
> since you cannot, apparently, think of new swear words)

Oh, damn, he doesn't like the swear words I use to express my 
displeasure.  What ever shall I do?

It's people like you who suck the joy out of volunteering to do the kind 
of work that Chris and TAG do.  You have an over-inflated sense of 
entitlement to things you have exactly zero entitlement to.

Good bye.

*plonk*

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw


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