hi,

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 06:48:45 -0400, jr wrote:
> > Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> >> Op 02/07/2020 om 11:57 schreef jr:
> >> > so, the following is just me "ranting", and if you're .. of a
> >> > delicate disposition, do not read on.
> >> >
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >> I am glad you started this discussion. ... I believe we all would be
> >> helped with a bit of serious information, ...
> >
> > tja..  looks like no information -- at all.  CC's "Let me ping the other
> > guys on our mailing list and see what they think" (Jul 4th), and "...
> > Ill be posting another update in a little while" (Jul 12th), had no
> > followups.
> >
> > ("move on, move on, nothing to see.."?!  apparently happy to just kick
> > the ball in the long grass)
>
> What are you offering to do to help out?  Maybe you didn't notice, but
> nobody working on pov-ray is paid to do so, it's a volunteer effort.

> People have lives, and I don't know if you noticed, but there's a lot of
> stuff going on in the world that has people pretty concerned.

there's always "stuff going on in the world" -- it's called life.

and if you're alluding to SARS-Cov-2, re-read the thread.  the "pandemic" cannot
be blamed for sitting on the Moray source for thirteen plus years.

> Instead of complaining, maybe offer to help out where you can.

<http://news.povray.org/web.5f00de9f17b7b05f4d00143e0%40news.povray.org>

> My $0.02.



> "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
> besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

quite.


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

hi,

Ash Holsenback <no### [at] spamcom> wrote:
> On 7/21/20 6:48 AM, jr wrote:
> > Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> >> Op 02/07/2020 om 11:57 schreef jr:
> >>> so, the following is just me "ranting", and if you're .. of a delicate
> >>> disposition, do not read on.
> >>>
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >> I am glad you started this discussion. ... I believe we all would be
> >> helped with a bit of serious information, ...
> >
> > tja..  looks like no information -- at all.  CC's "Let me ping the other guys on
> > our mailing list and see what they think" (Jul 4th), and "... Ill be posting
> > another update in a little while" (Jul 12th), had no followups.
> >
> > ("move on, move on, nothing to see.."?!  apparently happy to just kick the ball
> > in the long grass)
>
> well if it makes any difference...there HAS been some discussion about
> the task at hand, and i think (from what i can tell) it's not going to
> be the task...rather finding someone with the right skill set to get it
> done.

future code development isn't the only .. concern, but thanks for the update.


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 14:32:24 -0400, jr wrote:

>> What are you offering to do to help out?  Maybe you didn't notice, but
>> nobody working on pov-ray is paid to do so, it's a volunteer effort.
> 
>> People have lives, and I don't know if you noticed, but there's a lot
>> of stuff going on in the world that has people pretty concerned.
> 
> there's always "stuff going on in the world" -- it's called life.

Exactly.

> and if you're alluding to SARS-Cov-2, re-read the thread.  the
> "pandemic" cannot be blamed for sitting on the Moray source for thirteen
> plus years.

And your point is?  It takes people to step up to do stuff, and when 
people aren't stepping up to do stuff, things don't get done.

Welcome to the world of open source development with a small project team.

>> Instead of complaining, maybe offer to help out where you can.
> 
> <http://news.povray.org/web.5f00de9f17b7b05f4d00143e0%40news.povray.org>

Fair enough.

Being impatient isn't going to make things go faster.  As you astutely 
observed, the "stuff going on in the world" is life.  People have them, 
and set their priorities as they see fit.

They're not going to change them based on your desires, especially if you 
rant and complain to get action.

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

hi,

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 14:32:24 -0400, jr wrote:
> ...
> > and if you're alluding to SARS-Cov-2, re-read the thread.  the
> > "pandemic" cannot be blamed for sitting on the Moray source for thirteen
> > plus years.
>
> And your point is?  It takes people to step up to do stuff, and when
> people aren't stepping up to do stuff, things don't get done.
>
> Welcome to the world of open source development with a small project team.

hmm.  personally, I know of _v_ small "project team"s, ie individuals, who have
managed, besides living their personal lives, to create, for instance, a fully
standards compliant C compiler, in significantly fewer than thirteen years.

(for some reason everybody seems real .. coy when talk of Moray looms)

> >> Instead of complaining, maybe offer to help out where you can.
> >
> > <http://news.povray.org/web.5f00de9f17b7b05f4d00143e0%40news.povray.org>
>
> Fair enough.

very gracious, I'm sure.  (the withdrawn "a telling" was .. telling, also, or so
I think.  :-))

> Being impatient isn't going to make things go faster.  As you astutely
> observed, the "stuff going on in the world" is life.  People have them,
> and set their priorities as they see fit.
>
> They're not going to change them based on your desires, especially if you
> rant and complain to get action.

uh, this is about me now?  (if you can't play the ball, play the man?)


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 15:37:46 -0400, jr wrote:

>> And your point is?  It takes people to step up to do stuff, and when
>> people aren't stepping up to do stuff, things don't get done.
>>
>> Welcome to the world of open source development with a small project
>> team.
> 
> hmm.  personally, I know of _v_ small "project team"s, ie individuals,
> who have managed, besides living their personal lives, to create, for
> instance, a fully standards compliant C compiler, in significantly fewer
> than thirteen years.

Everyone's lives are different.  You don't get to dictate the terms that 
other people live their lives by.

> (for some reason everybody seems real .. coy when talk of Moray looms)

Hey, I'd like to see Moray come back to life as well.  But I can't 
contribute to it, and I sure as hell am not going to criticize people who 
have their own busy lives to live for not doing something that I'm not 
willing or able to step up and contribute to.

>> >> Instead of complaining, maybe offer to help out where you can.
>> >
>> > <http://news.povray.org/web.
5f00de9f17b7b05f4d00143e0%40news.povray.org>
>>
>> Fair enough.
> 
> very gracious, I'm sure.  (the withdrawn "a telling" was .. telling,
> also, or so I think.  :-))

Yeah, I didn't read closely enough - the link showed up weird in my 
newsreader, and I missed it.  I'll own that error on my part.

>> Being impatient isn't going to make things go faster.  As you astutely
>> observed, the "stuff going on in the world" is life.  People have them,
>> and set their priorities as they see fit.
>>
>> They're not going to change them based on your desires, especially if
>> you rant and complain to get action.
> 
> uh, this is about me now?  (if you can't play the ball, play the man?)

I don't see anyone else bitching and complaining about the state of 
development and throwing blame around.

The world doesn't revolve around your wants and desires, and putting 
together a laundry list of complaints isn't really a great way to 
motivate people to do what you want them to do.

It's one thing to ask for an update and to be polite about it.  You've 
been anything but.  I've known Chris for a very long time, and while he's 
being too nice to say "hey, you're being a dick about this", I don't 
appreciate people being dicks to my friends.

I didn't see you step up in the past 13 years after Lutz handed off Moray 
to the POV-Ray project and say "how can I help facilitate getting this 
code reviewed and made available?".

If you have too delicate a disposition to be called out when you're being 
a jerk, perhaps you should just go away.  At least be adult enough to own 
the fact that you have all the tact of a brick through a window.

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On 7/21/20 2:36 PM, jr wrote:
> hi,
> 
> Ash Holsenback <no### [at] spamcom> wrote:
>> On 7/21/20 6:48 AM, jr wrote:
>>> Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
>>>> Op 02/07/2020 om 11:57 schreef jr:
>>>>> so, the following is just me "ranting", and if you're .. of a delicate
>>>>> disposition, do not read on.
>>>>>
>>>> [snip]
>>>>
>>>> I am glad you started this discussion. ... I believe we all would be
>>>> helped with a bit of serious information, ...
>>>
>>> tja..  looks like no information -- at all.  CC's "Let me ping the other guys on
>>> our mailing list and see what they think" (Jul 4th), and "... Ill be posting
>>> another update in a little while" (Jul 12th), had no followups.
>>>
>>> ("move on, move on, nothing to see.."?!  apparently happy to just kick the ball
>>> in the long grass)
>>
>> well if it makes any difference...there HAS been some discussion about
>> the task at hand, and i think (from what i can tell) it's not going to
>> be the task...rather finding someone with the right skill set to get it
>> done.
> 
> future code development isn't the only .. concern, but thanks for the update.

against my better judgement i'm going to ask... what /else/ could you 
possibly be talking about!?!

Post a reply to this message

hi,

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 15:37:46 -0400, jr wrote:
>
> >> And your point is?  It takes people to step up to do stuff, and when
> >> people aren't stepping up to do stuff, things don't get done.
> >>
> >> Welcome to the world of open source development with a small project
> >> team.
> >
> > hmm.  personally, I know of _v_ small "project team"s, ie individuals,
> > who have managed, besides living their personal lives, to create, for
> > instance, a fully standards compliant C compiler, in significantly fewer
> > than thirteen years.
>
> Everyone's lives are different.  You don't get to dictate the terms that
> other people live their lives by.

there you go again, "you don't get to dictate..".  what makes you think I am
trying to tell anyone how to their life?

wrt the above, I simply point out that while some small teams, right down to the
smallest, manage to .. get on, that is not the case with POV-Ray, alas.  (or so
it seems)

> > (for some reason everybody seems real .. coy when talk of Moray looms)
>
> Hey, I'd like to see Moray come back to life as well.  But I can't
> contribute to it, and I sure as hell am not going to criticize people who
> have their own busy lives to live for not doing something that I'm not
> willing or able to step up and contribute to.

eg had the source been put some place public, like the wiki, or even github,
more than just a select few could have at least have a look at the .. task at
hand.

> >> >> Instead of complaining, maybe offer to help out where you can.
> >> >
> >> > <http://news.povray.org/web.
> 5f00de9f17b7b05f4d00143e0%40news.povray.org>
> >>
> >> Fair enough.
> >
> > very gracious, I'm sure.  (the withdrawn "a telling" was .. telling,
> > also, or so I think.  :-))
>
> Yeah, I didn't read closely enough - the link showed up weird in my
> newsreader, and I missed it.  I'll own that error on my part.

thanks.

and here's what I do not understand.  you have admin privilege for the news
server, and the wiki, afaik, and, guessing here, for the main website.  so why
then, as I pointed out in my initial "rant", is the news section so .. not news?
surely, whether you personally or someone else with access, could have sometime
in the past couple of years or so, added an item re the 3.8.0 alphas?  (I mean,
seriously, how many minutes would one need writing ~150 words?)

> >> Being impatient isn't going to make things go faster.  As you astutely
> >> observed, the "stuff going on in the world" is life.  People have them,
> >> and set their priorities as they see fit.
> >>
> >> They're not going to change them based on your desires, especially if
> >> you rant and complain to get action.
> >
> > uh, this is about me now?  (if you can't play the ball, play the man?)
>
> I don't see anyone else bitching and complaining about the state of
> development and throwing blame around.
>
> The world doesn't revolve around your wants and desires, and putting
> together a laundry list of complaints isn't really a great way to
> motivate people to do what you want them to do.
>
> It's one thing to ask for an update and to be polite about it.

no one's asking "for an update".  have you even read the initial "rant"?

>  You've
> been anything but.  I've known Chris for a very long time, and while he's
> being too nice to say "hey, you're being a dick about this", I don't
> appreciate people being dicks to my friends.
>
> I didn't see you step up in the past 13 years after Lutz handed off Moray
> to the POV-Ray project and say "how can I help facilitate getting this
> code reviewed and made available?".

no, have not been .. povving for that long.  and, in fairness, I'm not the first
to enquire about Moray, and what's happening.

> If you have too delicate a disposition to be called out when you're being
> a jerk, perhaps you should just go away.  At least be adult enough to own
> the fact that you have all the tact of a brick through a window.

directness, I'd call it.  :-)  look, I've no intention of letting this develop
in to a .. slanging match.  I am simply concerned that the s/ware I've grown
fond of using, isn't thriving.  and I'm more concerned now, because days turn
into weeks, weeks turn into months, etc, and yet, no real attempt at
communicating the context.


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

hi,

Ash Holsenback <no### [at] spamcom> wrote:
> On 7/21/20 2:36 PM, jr wrote:
> >>> ("move on, move on, nothing to see.."?!  apparently happy to just kick the ball
> >>> in the long grass)
> >>
> >> well if it makes any difference...there HAS been some discussion about
> >> the task at hand, and i think (from what i can tell) it's not going to
> >> be the task...rather finding someone with the right skill set to get it
> >> done.
> >
> > future code development isn't the only .. concern, but thanks for the update.
>
> against my better judgement i'm going to ask... what /else/ could you
> possibly be talking about!?!

selection: website maintenance; answers to questions like "why don't we have an
official IRC channel?" and "why isn't the Moray source somewhere the public has
access?"; "community", that talk posted by ingo touched on some points.


regards, jr.

Post a reply to this message

On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 17:41:25 -0400, jr wrote:

>> Everyone's lives are different.  You don't get to dictate the terms
>> that other people live their lives by.
> 
> there you go again, "you don't get to dictate..".  what makes you think
> I am trying to tell anyone how to their life?

The fact that you're bitching about stagnation in development, and 
essentially trying to order people to "get with the program and get some 
work done" (I know, not a direct quote - this is how you're coming 
across).

> wrt the above, I simply point out that while some small teams, right
> down to the smallest, manage to .. get on, that is not the case with
> POV-Ray, alas.  (or so it seems)

ie, you're stating your expectation that the developers get to work on 
the future of POV-Ray, and trying to apply pressure to do something.

You don't get to do that.  You're not their boss.

>> > (for some reason everybody seems real .. coy when talk of Moray
>> > looms)
>>
>> Hey, I'd like to see Moray come back to life as well.  But I can't
>> contribute to it, and I sure as hell am not going to criticize people
>> who have their own busy lives to live for not doing something that I'm
>> not willing or able to step up and contribute to.
> 
> eg had the source been put some place public, like the wiki, or even
> github, more than just a select few could have at least have a look at
> the .. task at hand.

And if you read a little about the history, you'd know that the code 
*can't* be published publicly because there is proprietary code that 
needs to be scrubbed.

But it's easier to bitch than to review the information that's already 
out there in order to understand.

>> Yeah, I didn't read closely enough - the link showed up weird in my
>> newsreader, and I missed it.  I'll own that error on my part.
> 
> thanks.
> 
> and here's what I do not understand.  you have admin privilege for the
> news server, and the wiki, afaik, and, guessing here, for the main
> website.  so why then, as I pointed out in my initial "rant", is the
> news section so .. not news?

I don't have admin privileges for the news server or the wiki (any 
more).  I helped get the wiki set up, but life got busy, and I handed off 
to someone else.

> surely, whether you personally or someone else with access, could have
> sometime in the past couple of years or so, added an item re the 3.8.0
> alphas?  (I mean, seriously, how many minutes would one need writing
> ~150 words?)

You're making assumptions about my role within the team that simply 
aren't true.

>> I don't see anyone else bitching and complaining about the state of
>> development and throwing blame around.
>>
>> The world doesn't revolve around your wants and desires, and putting
>> together a laundry list of complaints isn't really a great way to
>> motivate people to do what you want them to do.
>>
>> It's one thing to ask for an update and to be polite about it.
> 
> no one's asking "for an update".  have you even read the initial "rant"?

I did.  And if you had just asked for an update as to what's going on, we 
wouldn't be having this discussion.

But instead, you posted a whiny rant bitching about the lack of progress 
on all things pov-ray.

>> I didn't see you step up in the past 13 years after Lutz handed off
>> Moray to the POV-Ray project and say "how can I help facilitate getting
>> this code reviewed and made available?".
> 
> no, have not been .. povving for that long.  and, in fairness, I'm not
> the first to enquire about Moray, and what's happening.

From your rant:

"then, lastly, there's the .. inertia.  the "illness" of the head.
how many years have you now been sitting on the Moray source?
(hint: Tony Blair was then still Prime Minister of the UK, and the
financial crisis of 2008 was not yet on the horizon)"

That's not "enquiring about Moray and what's happening" - that's whining, 
plain and simple.

"What's the latest on Moray?" - that's inquiring about the status of that 
code.

> 
>> If you have too delicate a disposition to be called out when you're
>> being a jerk, perhaps you should just go away.  At least be adult
>> enough to own the fact that you have all the tact of a brick through a
>> window.
> 
> directness, I'd call it.  :-)  look, I've no intention of letting this
> develop in to a .. slanging match.  I am simply concerned that the
> s/ware I've grown fond of using, isn't thriving.  and I'm more concerned
> now, because days turn into weeks, weeks turn into months, etc, and yet,
> no real attempt at communicating the context.

So maybe ask a question instead of whining and bitching about various 
aspects that aren't moving to your personal satisfaction.  Don't be a 
dick about it, be respectful of the fact that people have lives, and you 
don't know what they're doing.

You weren't direct.  You were just plain rude.

You aren't letting this "develop in to a .. slanging match" - you started 
by slinging shit.  You don't get to walk away and pretend you didn't try 
to start something here.

I have been a member of this community for decades.  Chris and I had a 
really nice reminiscence about the early days on CompuServe a few years 
back.  I would love to see this code thrive, but I know my own 
limitations, and I understand that people get busy and their priorities 
in life shift.  The last thing that's needed is someone coming in here 
stirring shit under the guise of "I'm doing this because I love this 
software" without offering concrete ways in which they might be able to 
help.

You want things to improve, start by looking over your rant and pick out 
a few things you think you might be able to help with, and then instead 
of talking about how "the head is ill", offer specific ways in which you 
might help.  Maybe that's running an IRC channel and helping promote it.  
Maybe it's helping do link checks to ensure that links that are broken 
don't remain so.

But what you posted to try to elicit a response?  Completely useless, 
pointless, and downright rude.
-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

> Everyone's lives are different.  You don't get to dictate the terms that
> other people live their lives by.

If only the world of People held to that when they voted.  :|

> >> >> Instead of complaining, maybe offer to help out where you can.

To be fair, I think that's a more difficult proposition than it seems.   It's
like throwing a resume out into the job market.
Personalities aside, I think that the core issue is still that no one knows who
is responsible for what, and it's hard to grasp what can and needs to be done
when one is not privy to things discussed by "the dev team" and other groups
with various designations.
When there are difficulties, it is easy to deflect any and all discussion by
painting someone as [merely] "a complainer".  Or to ignore them, or simply
maintain radio silence.
"What you allow, is what will continue."
Perhaps jr is being "disagreeable," but that doesn't invalidate any of his
points, and it is perhaps, what is needed.  If POV-Ray was a company, it would
be sensible to listen to and consider the customer's [user's] concerns.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WXo1aFb8MY


> >> Being impatient isn't going to make things go faster.
On the flipside, one might say that being patient won't either.

> I don't see anyone else bitching and complaining about the state of
> development and throwing blame around.

Would it help if they did?
Does it matter that jr IS?
I mean, sometimes it's just a matter of damned if you do, and damned if you
don't.
We can discuss 1. people, 2. events, or 3. IDEAS.
We can leave jr completely out of this, and still address the issues he raises.

> .... putting
> together a laundry list of complaints isn't really a great way to
> motivate people to do what you want them to do.

No, but the 12-steppers would say that the first step to fixing things is
recognizing that you have a problem.   Whether you like they way they tell you
or not is - from a POV-Ray development standpoint - irrelevant.
There have been plenty of people here, over the years, who have shoved my nose
in the pile of code that I've deposited on the carpet, and metaphorically beat
me with the rolled up newspaper until the answers began to glimmer through the
thinner parts of my thick skull.
Polite?  Tactful?  Probably not.
Effective?   Seemed to be.
I've made it this far, and don't tend to ask _as many_ completely idiotic
questions.

> It's one thing to ask for an update and to be polite about it.  You've
> been anything but.  I've known Chris for a very long time, and while he's
> being too nice to say "hey, you're being a dick about this", I don't
> appreciate people being dicks to my friends.

Maybe he's "being a dick", and maybe he's not.
Maybe he's old and cranky and cantankerous, and having a bad blood-sugar day, or
it's hot and muggy, and he ran out of both coffee and patience.
But he is being assertive and trying to keep this on the front burner.
If he was a boss or a supervisor (whose underlings generally consider them
dicks) he'd "just be doing his job."
Sooner or later, someone is going to come by with a sword and take a mighty
swing at the Gordian Knot.
It seems to me that jr might simply be willing to volunteer to be the "lightning
rod" that others aren't willing to be.
A rule of thumb in complaints and customer service is that for every complaint,
there are 300 others just like it that haven't been communicated.

> I didn't see you step up in the past 13 years after Lutz handed off Moray
> to the POV-Ray project and say "how can I help facilitate getting this
> code reviewed and made available?".

My own impression of the state of that was: "we're not allowed to have the
code", which we'd need to do, to see / review it - because it proprietary or
whatever - and so it's kind of a catch-22.

> If you have too delicate a disposition to be called out when you're being
> a jerk, perhaps you should just go away.  At least be adult enough to own
> the fact that you have all the tact of a brick through a window.

Regardless of his level of impatience or tact, I would respectfully submit that
the issues raised still stand on their own, and so perhaps we can pretend that
Princess Penelope Petunia batted her eyelashes and curtsied while demurely
asking that a teensy favor of hers be granted.

Also, in all fairness, he / we were promised an answer/response, and jr seems to
be abiding by the Russian proverb - an admonition to "trust, but verify."

The world is full of plenty of dicks who don't want to answer questions "because
of the tone that they were asked in", even when it's in every way proper to hold
them accountable.  Damned citizen taxpayers being jerks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99IeGqIIHj4

So - let's not be THAT way either.

Now, ruffled feathers or not, there are still some of us sitting out here in the
Peanut Gallery who are interested in answers, information, history, opinions,
and other levels and forms of discussion on the topics raised about POV-Ray, and
Moray.

Please, and a preemptive Thank You.

Post a reply to this message