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Phil Cook wrote:
>> Dude. Jumpers.
>>
>> Seriously. Jumpers.
>
> Which I had to change to set the FSB speed;
Really??
On my motherboard, I just plugged everything in, turned it on, and it
automatically configured itself and worked. Not one single jumper to set.
> not counting the ones on the
> HDs for master/slave which I didn't need to look at.
SATA HDs don't have these either.
> You're right though
> I recall racks of jumpers which had to be set to arcane precsion to get
> things working, but it's still a testament that's the only advance you
> can spot.
Can you think of anything else that *requires* improvement then?
>> It used to be the case that getting any new bit of hardware to work
>> involved advanced jumper settings, twiddling dip switches and chanting
>> over voodoo dolls. Today you can pretty much just plug in a PCI card
>> and *expect* it to work immediately -
>
>> or at least as soon as you put the CD in.
>
> So the CD counts as part of the hardware then?
Depends on your definition of "works".
If you want to be able to control it, you'll need some software to do
that. But sure, a couple of things that can be operated without software
will work straight off...
> Describe the process for installing a CPU five/ten years ago compared to
> doing so today.
What, you'd like the CPU to teleport itself into the socket instead? :-D
> Repeat with a video card leaving out bits you're doing
> in software.
Remember when we all had 2 video cards and a pass-through cable to allow
you to switch between 2D and 3D modes? ;-)
>> Anybody who remembers the old skool ways will tell you just how much
>> of an improvement that is.
>
> But how much is that down to an improvement in software. Windows 95
> automatically added new hardware and sought out the drivers for it.
In the old days, things like IRQ numbers could *only* be adjusted by
physically moving DIP switches on the circuit board. The point is that
they CHANGED THE HARDWARE so you could change the IRQ number in
software. THAT is what has allowed "the software to get better".
>> And let's not even get started on all those USB goodies that YOU JUST
>> PLUG IN AND THEY GO! It wasn't like that before. Had to turn off the
>> whole PC to connect or disconnect anything...
>
> Again though why did the older computers need to reboot - the software
> unable to dynamically load/unload drivers or a physical hardware aspect?
In the Old Days, if you suddenly plugged or unplugged a device, you
would likely fry the interface circuitry. Today we use interfaces that
are expressedly designed to support such actions. That one is purely a
hardware thing. (Although obviously the software needs to support it too.)
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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And lo on Mon, 04 Feb 2008 15:36:29 -0000, Invisible <voi### [at] dev null> did
spake, saying:
> Phil Cook wrote:
>
>>> Dude. Jumpers.
>>>
>>> Seriously. Jumpers.
>> Which I had to change to set the FSB speed;
>
> Really??
<major snip> I'm not saying things haven't gotten better, just a) cmparing
the pace compared to software and b) would you expect someone who had no
problem installing Acme Racing Game II to fit a new CPU/Motherboard/Video
Card/Memory? 'Open up the case and look at all those wires, now just
remember don't touch any of them else sharks will eat your granny'. You're
still opening the case being confronted with a PCB and a bunch of wires
and cables hanging about it's still more a preserve of your geek.
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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Phil Cook wrote:
> <major snip> I'm not saying things haven't gotten better, just a)
> cmparing the pace compared to software and b) would you expect someone
> who had no problem installing Acme Racing Game II to fit a new
> CPU/Motherboard/Video Card/Memory? 'Open up the case and look at all
> those wires, now just remember don't touch any of them else sharks will
> eat your granny'. You're still opening the case being confronted with a
> PCB and a bunch of wires and cables hanging about it's still more a
> preserve of your geek.
Well... have you opened the bonnet of your car recently? I notice newer
cars have a big sheet of plastic under there, but beyond that it's still
pretty much a case of "if you don't know what a distributor is, you
probably shouldn't touch this - otherwise you might die". At least
computers don't physically kill you if you make a mistake. ;-)
I don't really see how the situation can realistically be improved much.
You could make all the components less fragile by using some sort of
casing, and make it to things slot together more easily, but that's
about it.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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And lo on Mon, 04 Feb 2008 15:52:02 -0000, Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> did
spake, saying:
> Phil Cook wrote:
>
>> <major snip> I'm not saying things haven't gotten better, just a)
>> cmparing the pace compared to software and b) would you expect someone
>> who had no problem installing Acme Racing Game II to fit a new
>> CPU/Motherboard/Video Card/Memory? 'Open up the case and look at all
>> those wires, now just remember don't touch any of them else sharks will
>> eat your granny'. You're still opening the case being confronted with a
>> PCB and a bunch of wires and cables hanging about it's still more a
>> preserve of your geek.
>
> Well... have you opened the bonnet of your car recently? I notice newer
> cars have a big sheet of plastic under there, but beyond that it's still
> pretty much a case of "if you don't know what a distributor is, you
> probably shouldn't touch this - otherwise you might die". At least
> computers don't physically kill you if you make a mistake. ;-)
Except vehicle manufacturers don't want their customers fiddling under the
hood, computer hardware manufacturers should at least video
game/processor/etc retailers should.
> I don't really see how the situation can realistically be improved much.
> You could make all the components less fragile by using some sort of
> casing, and make it to things slot together more easily, but that's
> about it.
Well last time we had this thread I mentioned the motherboard
daughterboard setup combined with a hot-swap facility. Simple slots on the
back, press the button and the daughterboard disengages and you pull it
out and slot the new one in place. Have a dedicated slot for the CPU, one
for the memory, and one for the video card, with the rest being generic
PCI-type slots. Similar generic front slots (with a dedicated boot slot)
for extra hard drives, floppy drives, CD, DVD, tape, etc.
Think how it stands at the moment someone has a computer with one DVD
player and a floppy drive, he's never used the floppy drive in his life
and wants to replace it with another DVD rewriter or Blu-ray player.
What's he got to do to make that happen?
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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> At least computers don't physically kill you if you make a mistake.
> ;-)
Open your PSU, or your CRT monitor. See you at hospital if you touch the
wrong thing.
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>> Well... have you opened the bonnet of your car recently? I notice
>> newer cars have a big sheet of plastic under there, but beyond that
>> it's still pretty much a case of "if you don't know what a distributor
>> is, you probably shouldn't touch this - otherwise you might die". At
>> least computers don't physically kill you if you make a mistake. ;-)
>
> Except vehicle manufacturers don't want their customers fiddling under
> the hood, computer hardware manufacturers should at least video
> game/processor/etc retailers should.
Mmm, true...
> Well last time we had this thread I mentioned the motherboard
> daughterboard setup combined with a hot-swap facility. Simple slots on
> the back, press the button and the daughterboard disengages and you pull
> it out and slot the new one in place.
We have some 10 year old Dell PCs that do exactly this. Press a button
and the case falls apart. (I think it's meant to unclip, but actually it
just falls apart.) Press another button and the daughterboard with all
the PCI stuff on it unclips and slides out of the case. (Don't ever try
to put it back though...)
> Have a dedicated slot for the CPU,
> one for the memory, and one for the video card, with the rest being
> generic PCI-type slots. Similar generic front slots (with a dedicated
> boot slot) for extra hard drives, floppy drives, CD, DVD, tape, etc.
Well now, if you buy a big expensive server, they actually come with
hot-swappable drive bays. Take an empty draw out. Put the HD inside it.
Slot it into the front of the case. Done.
A computer case like that should only set you back... oh, I don't know,
a few thousand pounds.
Actually, try this:
http://www.apple.com/xserve/raid/
> Think how it stands at the moment someone has a computer with one DVD
> player and a floppy drive, he's never used the floppy drive in his life
> and wants to replace it with another DVD rewriter or Blu-ray player.
> What's he got to do to make that happen?
The problem with all of this is that somebody has to design a set of
nice slots that everybody will manufacture to. (Otherwise you won't be
able to buy parts from other suppliers and slot them into your machine!)
If you buy something like a HP BladeCenter you can slot more CPUs, RAM,
HDs, etc. into and out of it without even powering it off. But you can
So, in summary, the technology exists, it's just wickedly expensive
right now. Because the only people who "need it" are the
high-availability guys who want to hot-swap mission-critical components
in some big datacenter somewhere. I guess if the industry decides that
normal people might "want" this kind of thing they *might* get their act
together... but don't hold your breath.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Nicolas Alvarez wrote:
>> At least computers don't physically kill you if you make a mistake.
>> ;-)
>
> Open your PSU, or your CRT monitor. See you at hospital if you touch the
> wrong thing.
Number of screws to open the case: 4.
Number of screws to open the PSU: 17 on average.
Touch the wrong thing and they will scatter your ashes over the place of
your choice - because you will in fact be fried to a human crisp long
before you reach any hospital. ;-)
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On Mon, 04 Feb 2008 16:43:42 +0000, Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>
>Touch the wrong thing and they will scatter your ashes over the place of
>your choice - because you will in fact be fried to a human crisp long
>before you reach any hospital. ;-)
Wimp! :) I think that you've got to be quite determined to kill yourself if you
want to use a PSU for that.
Ouch! That woke me up is much more common than You deaded me.
Having said that you do need some common sense.
Regards
Stephen
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And lo on Mon, 04 Feb 2008 16:42:11 -0000, Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> did
spake, saying:
>>> Well... have you opened the bonnet of your car recently? I notice
>>> newer cars have a big sheet of plastic under there, but beyond that
>>> it's still pretty much a case of "if you don't know what a distributor
>>> is, you probably shouldn't touch this - otherwise you might die". At
>>> least computers don't physically kill you if you make a mistake. ;-)
>> Except vehicle manufacturers don't want their customers fiddling under
>> the hood, computer hardware manufacturers should at least video
>> game/processor/etc retailers should.
>
> Mmm, true...
>
>> Well last time we had this thread I mentioned the motherboard
>> daughterboard setup combined with a hot-swap facility. Simple slots on
>> the back, press the button and the daughterboard disengages and you
>> pull it out and slot the new one in place.
>
> We have some 10 year old Dell PCs that do exactly this. Press a button
> and the case falls apart. (I think it's meant to unclip, but actually it
> just falls apart.) Press another button and the daughterboard with all
> the PCI stuff on it unclips and slides out of the case. (Don't ever try
> to put it back though...)
And how much easier is that to work with, or to put it another way how
much more comforting to a newbie do you think that would be?
>> Have a dedicated slot for the CPU, one for the memory, and one for the
>> video card, with the rest being generic PCI-type slots. Similar generic
>> front slots (with a dedicated boot slot) for extra hard drives, floppy
>> drives, CD, DVD, tape, etc.
>
> Well now, if you buy a big expensive server, they actually come with
> hot-swappable drive bays. Take an empty draw out. Put the HD inside it.
> Slot it into the front of the case. Done.
>
> A computer case like that should only set you back... oh, I don't know,
> a few thousand pounds.
>
> Actually, try this:
>
> http://www.apple.com/xserve/raid/
>
>
>> Think how it stands at the moment someone has a computer with one DVD
>> player and a floppy drive, he's never used the floppy drive in his life
>> and wants to replace it with another DVD rewriter or Blu-ray player.
>> What's he got to do to make that happen?
>
> The problem with all of this is that somebody has to design a set of
> nice slots that everybody will manufacture to. (Otherwise you won't be
> able to buy parts from other suppliers and slot them into your machine!)
You mean like PCI and SATA and 3.5" drive bays :-) The problems that
others pointed out was the obvious limitation that these slots and
connections would be fixed; you'd be stuck at the equivalent of AGP or
ISA. Except when you buy a mother board you're already stuck at these
limits.
There should be nothing stopping you from popping the components, sliding
the side of the case open like a drawer, pulling the old motherboard,
sliding in the new one closing it up (I'm thinking combs from hive type
ease, minus the bees) and then clocking the components back in assuming
backwards compatability like USB or slotting in new ones.
> If you buy something like a HP BladeCenter you can slot more CPUs, RAM,
> HDs, etc. into and out of it without even powering it off. But you can
>
> So, in summary, the technology exists, it's just wickedly expensive
> right now. Because the only people who "need it" are the
> high-availability guys who want to hot-swap mission-critical components
> in some big datacenter somewhere. I guess if the industry decides that
> normal people might "want" this kind of thing they *might* get their act
> together... but don't hold your breath.
It's wickedly expensive because they're wrapping it up in servers and high
quality checks and the manufacturers think that the only people who need
it are people who can afford servers with high-quality checks.
Remember - they charge what they think you'll pay.
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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Stephen wrote:
> Wimp! :) I think that you've got to be quite determined to kill yourself if you
> want to use a PSU for that.
> Ouch! That woke me up is much more common than You deaded me.
> Having said that you do need some common sense.
http://www.xkcd.com/242/
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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