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On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 18:59:58 -0300, nemesis
<nam### [at] nospamgmail com> wrote:
>Stephen wrote:
>> You might say that but I couldn't possibly comment.
>
>I'm just a software programmer, not even seeking to dominate the world
>by inventing some super AI and calling it G.O.D.
>
That was a joke, a quote even :)
>> Sorry, I was brought up a Presbyterian who was taught that you don't
>> need anyone to stand between you and your morals.
>
>And happy you are.
Wrong! Taught but not encouraged, I might have added.
> Most people in the world are brought up to
>revere/worship/follow religious authorities, dictators, kings,
>politicians, popstars, cult authors etc.
By the religious authorities, dictators, kings etc :)
>It seems to be in human nature
>to be in constant search of out-of-ordinary heroes to be personal models
>of behavior.
>
Depends what you mean by out-of-ordinary heroes? A good man or woman
would do me.
>> IMO The vast majority of people need food and an
>> education and not to be oppressed.
>
>I agree. Even so, I can't help but fear that most of these
>non-oppressed, educated people would still be in search of other people
>to tell them how they should live their lives -- like indeed is very
>common to see people in big industrialized cities to search for some
>help to their personal problems with psychoanalysts (a modern father of
>sorts).
Not when I was young in dockland Glasgow. I think that is an American
thing.
Let people have something worthwhile to do and the means to do it and
they would be a lot happier and healthier.
>The problem with people isn't education or political regimes:
>it's that they are too damn lazy to try to solve their problems and end
>up resorting to others.
No point in giving them baths is there? I'm sure that they would only
put coal in them.
That means that I've heard it before and I don't believe it. In fact
it doesn't wash :)
>> And as for being as much of a sinner as anyone else. Then stop being
>> one and that includes the sins of making people believe in your small
>> god
>
>I don't force God down the throats of anyone, do I?
Small gods refers to the diminishing power of schisms in religion. And
no I don't think you do, do you?
>> and starting sentences with and or but. (A particular failing of
>> mine.)
>
>oh! :P
--
Regards
Stephen
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In article <47E### [at] hotmailcom>, a_l### [at] hotmailcom
says...
> What is at stake here is nothing less than the survival of the US
> itself. On one side the group of people that noticed that moral
> behaviour is dropping while (or because) religion is losing ground with
> respect to when they were young.
Umm. Which country are you talking about here? Seriously. In the last 10
years we have gone from the European view of religion, where its all
sort of there, but no one worries to much about it, to one where you
have to prove which one of you kisses God's ass better to be recommended
for election, never mind winning it. What we, on the inside, see is a
small group of nuts, similar to the same kinds than led to the Jim Jones
cult, Heaven's Gate, and Wacko, but with *huge* followings of people
that think religion has lost ground, not because it has, and those of us
among the secular have lost many battles, but because we finally
realized we can't afford to lose any more, and have tried to fight back.
In the same period, we have seen religion produce pedophiles, radical
Islam, people willing to blame every natural disaster on God's
punishment of what ever group they hate this week, faith based
everything, leading to millions of people not receiving medical
treatment in places like Africa, proper sex ed in the US, and an
increasingly more and more rabid attempt to push prayers into schools,
government facilities, etc. We have seen museums built to idiocy,
politicians basing policies on who they hate, while often being the ones
"commiting" what they hate, etc. They all blame this on "secular"
society, and in a country where the leaders of the left are the
religious and ideological equivalent to the right wingers in Europe, the
right wing here is convinced the whole country is going to hell, not
because **they** can't keep their pants on, stay away from other
people's kids, or act morally, but because those of us that don't think
religion *must* be the core of every waking moment **caused** them to
act this way.
Sorry, but, from my perspective, religion has gotten "more powerful" in
the US in my life time, and with that power has come a need by its
proponents to rewrite history and distort facts to cement that power,
and a paranoia about vast conspiracies to unseat them.
Your view of the situation from our side is, somewhat accurate, but
incomplete. Its not about economics, or super powers, or even science.
Its about what has happened in **every** single case where those with an
ideological goal, and no real morals, values, self limitations of their
behavior, or recognition of their own mistakes, tries to force a country
in the direction of becoming more obsessive about that ideology, while
those who could have done something about it sink into apathy.
The irony here is that "both" sides think the problem in moral
bankruptcy and lack of ethics. I would argue that history tends to
strongly suggest that obsession with ideology is *always* the problem.
As for science being the main issue of the other side... Its only *one*
issue. Yes, we certainly consider it one of the big ones, but its only
the target being most hammered by the other side right now. They have
certain basic themes, depending on what they are griping about at the
moment, "family", "sex", "life styles", and, "the bankruptcy of
science". It goes in cycles, and some times overlaps. Last time they
harped, and harped about gays, life style choices, and the definition of
family, a trifecta of concepts they want to own. When that failed, they
decided that the only way to get anyone to listen was to corrupt
education, thus the wedge document, which declared evolution as the
crack into which they could "wedge" religion, so as to spread religious
teaching through ***all*** branches of the school system. Mind you, the
only reason they thought it would make a good wedge was do to there
ignorance and complete failure to understand the science, but that is
beside the point.
Yes, it will damage the US future economy, etc. But, I am far more
concerned about the fact that they are already trying to rewrite early
US history to back their attacks on science, as well as making other
attempts to feed their religion into other classes. If you are willing
to lie, cheat, and steal your way to power, the biggest concern is not
if the US suffers some minor hiccup in its science, but the moral
bankruptcy, the distortion of reality, and the collapse of civil ideals
into some new inquisition that worry me and others. Science is just the
first casualty in this, and precisely because they actually think its
both a) possible to convince gullible people the see it as evil, and in
need of being chained (unfortunately accurate), and b) the weak point in
the defenses of secularism (which they equate with atheism).
--
void main () {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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