>> You're not going to change the mind of the religious person.
> 
> So let's make things even worse and make him hate you?
> 

You know the world is not made of just scientists and religious nuts.
There is a whole lot of people watching the debate...

If I have to be hated by one fool to prevent a hundred people following
him blindly because no-one wanted to sound confrontational, well so be
it. It does not make things worst overall.

-- 
Vincent

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Warp wrote:
>   You always sound so arrogant, but in this case you are simply wrong,
> sorry, and this time I have quite clear references. For example:
> 
> http://amasci.com/weird/end.html

OK, so for 20 years they thought they'd have everything figured out. 
That's hardly stagnation.

>> You're so full of crap.
>   You are being unusually rude today.

You are correct. I am still feeling unwell. I apologise.

>   And that somehow disproves the claim that a large amount of scientists
> strongly opposed Eintein's and others' theories at first?

Sure, but clearly for less than 10 years. Obviously, scientific change 
*does* take some time, or it's just technology.

>   And why do you bring up religion into this?

Must be something about the thread.  Hmmm... Could be the creationist 
museum concept?

>   Where have I proposed that? Why do you insist in bringing religion
> into this?

I dunno. I look at the subject line, and when you say "I believe 
evolution is implausible", I have to believe it's because you prefer the 
religious explanation.

>> Like I said, illogical.
>   You certainly sound arrogant.

"Please explain to this man the difference between arrogance and 
competence."

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     Remember the good old days, when we
     used to complain about cryptography
     being export-restricted?

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Warp wrote:
> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>> and atheists aren't anti-christian, they're anti-theist. :-)
> 
>   In my experience the majority of self-proclaimed atheists vehemently
> oppose christianity, usually much more than any other religions. Usually
> they have a more or less indifferent attitude towards other religions,
> while loudly opposing anything related to christianity.

I don't know any atheists who oppose christian suicide bombers more than 
muslim suicide bombers. It's probably just that the atheists here have 
more christians to oppose.

>   (I have even witnessed extreme cases, where devoted atheists have had
> a *positive* attitude towards other religions, up to the point where they
> frown upon criticising them, while still loudly criticising christianity.)

That's kind of strange.  These were theistic religions?

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     Remember the good old days, when we
     used to complain about cryptography
     being export-restricted?

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> You were talking about evolution, to start with, tho. We know there are 
> theories that aren't complete. We know there are unanswered questions in 
> every scientific theory. But most stuff tends to be refinements of what 
> we already know in realms we couldn't measure before. Even quantum and 
> relativity didn't overthrow newtonian physics - we still use that to 
> shoot space probes.

  The problem is that while most knowledgeable people are not claiming
that the theory of relativity is the absolute truth, many are nevertheless
saying that the theory of evolution is the absolute truth. Granted, in
many cases it's the laymen who know little about the actual physics who
throw claims like "the theory of evolution has been proven to be true",
especially in heated discussions against creationists, but you can see
claims along those lines from more knowledgeable people too.

  For example Phil Plait is a professional astronomer, and you can
constantly find that kind of attitude in his blog. He doesn't believe
that evolution is true, he *knows* that evolution is true. It's a fact.
When reading his blog on this subject it quickly becomes clear that to
him evolution is exactly the same type of fact as gravity or the existence
of the Sun. It's quite clear that to him it's not a theory at all, but a
proven law of nature.

  It's this kind of "I know" attitude that bothers me.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Hence, the 
> mocking obviously had some use here, getting some of the more religious 
> people trying to defend their beliefs in some small way.

  I haven't seen any defending of religious views in this thread. Perhaps
I missed it.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Vincent Le Chevalier <gal### [at] libertyallsurfspamfr> wrote:
> If I have to be hated by one fool to prevent a hundred people following
> him blindly because no-one wanted to sound confrontational, well so be
> it. It does not make things worst overall.

  To me the mocking just looks like preaching to the choir. (No pun
intended, really.)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Warp wrote:
> >   You always sound so arrogant, but in this case you are simply wrong,
> > sorry, and this time I have quite clear references. For example:
> > 
> > http://amasci.com/weird/end.html

> OK, so for 20 years they thought they'd have everything figured out. 
> That's hardly stagnation.

  I don't remember saying anything about stagnation, but whatever.

> >   And why do you bring up religion into this?

> Must be something about the thread.  Hmmm... Could be the creationist 
> museum concept?

  The sub-thread I started was related to the mocking of other people
because of their beliefs, not to whether creationists are right or wrong.

  The usenet protocol doesn't really support the concept of "sub-thread",
where a thread is spawned by another. You can either change the subject
of your post (which still technically makes it part of the same thread)
or create a completely new thread (which would separate it from its
context).

  The objection I raised was not about the validity of any claims, but
about the moral justification of this kind of mocking.

> >   Where have I proposed that? Why do you insist in bringing religion
> > into this?

> I dunno. I look at the subject line, and when you say "I believe 
> evolution is implausible",

  I have never said that's my opinion. The only thing I have said is
that someone having that opinion is not reason enough to ridicule him.

  If I say "you should not make fun of homosexuals" that doesn't imply
I am a homosexual, nor even that I am a pro-homosexual. It simply means
that I object to making fun of people because of their orientation.

> I have to believe it's because you prefer the 
> religious explanation.

  I have never implied anything like that either. That's completely your
own idea.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Warp wrote:
>   You can find the latter attitude in all kind of people, from complete
> laymen to amateur scientists to professional scientists. Sure, not *all*
> people are like that, but many are.

What you're saying is that the same 'blind belief' attitude is present 
amongst all categories of people, regardless of whether what they 
believe is religion or science.  From what I understand, the very point 
of science is its mutability; when new, contradicting evidence is 
discovered, old theories are modified or discarded.  And while some 
people think that Science, like Religion, is set in stone and there 
haven't been paradigm shifts since [insert famous name here, be it 
Einstein, Hawking, Pasteur, Watson/Crick, Galileo, etc], each field is 
constantly undergoing change based on new evidence; if you don't 
actively follow that field, however, you're left thinking it static.

-- 
Tim Cook
http://home.bellsouth.net/p/PWP-empyrean

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The article is indeed all about mockery and too over-the-top itself.  But he
does not take jabs at Christians, only at this whole Intelligent Design,
Creationism propaganda trying to pass off as Science.  It's not Science because
Science is (or should be) all about trying to break down old theories of how
things work, while ID is all about reassuring the Word of God as written in the
Bible.

I don't think there is today as much anti-christianism as there is an
anti-scientific mood in the air...

I'm a Christian but I think it's hard to believe God would reveal all the
mysteries of the Universe in exact technical details to the simple shepherds of
4000+ years ago... He had to keep it simple. :)

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nemesis <nam### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> I don't think there is today as much anti-christianism as there is an
> anti-scientific mood in the air...

  That may be so in the US. Not yet here.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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