 |
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
"Warp" <war### [at] tag povrayorg> wrote in message
news:47421093@news.povray.org...
> Ross <rli### [at] speakeasynet> wrote:
> > For shame. Now you're just mocking him for the sake of mocking.
>
> How unimaginative to reuse the same old joke someone else already used.
>
> What next? Some incomprehensive allusion to rabbits?
>
> --
> - Warp
Sorry to dissapoint you then, for I was reading the thread top down and
replying as I came to them.
here, accept this carrot as a token of my unimaginitive apology.
Post a reply to this message
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote in message
news:47421c44@news.povray.org...
> Ross <rli### [at] speakeasynet> wrote:
> > Are you the authority on rational explanations? As a participant of the
> > argument, I don't think you are suited to be that judge.
>
> Perhaps you didn't see words like "my guess is that" in my text?
> Does that kind of wording sound like I'm stating a fact or does it sound
> like I'm simply speculating?
I don't see the connection of your speculation to the paragraph I was
referencing... the "making fun of a head of a foreign state". You say, "In
other cases, however, I just can't understand it." With "It" being the
opposition, right? Let me be clear, I am saying you may be unable to have
realized a rational explanation because of your emotinal involvement in the
argument.
I don't see your point in bringing the "And my guess..." into it. What does
that have to do with it?
>
> Well, this just confirms that people only see what they want to see,
> not what it's written.
>
> I suppose it's Murphy's law applied to internet forums: If a message can
> be interpreted in more than one way, someone will interpret it in the
worst
> possible way. (Which is especially true if they *want* to interpret it in
> the worst possible way because of who is writing.)
>
That's true. We form opinions of people and are baised by those opinions no
doubt. I don't think that's a new revelation really.
Post a reply to this message
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
Ross <rli### [at] speakeasynet> wrote:
> Warp hates the mocking and has yet to offer a viable option to it other than
> "Continue to try to convince by presenting the facts." Yet this has failed,
> and failed, and failed. Rather than continue the insanity loop, what should
> one do?
Are you saying that making fun of other people is a viable and acceptable
solution?
Well, that's exactly what I don't understand. In my opinion making fun
of people is not civilized nor acceptable. I'm not exactly sure how should
I think of people who disagree with this. It just doesn't make sense.
--
- Warp
Post a reply to this message
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
In article <47415705@news.povray.org>, war### [at] tagpovrayorg says...
> Nicolas Alvarez <nic### [at] gmailisthebestcom> wrote:
> > Are you *still* thinking Warp was arguing against evolution?
>
> In that post he answered I was certainly not. The only thing I did was
> to question the notion of evidence being proof (of anything in general).
>
> He proceeded to write a lengthy novel about evidence pro evolution,
> which is not what I was talking about, so he seems to think that I was
> saying "evolution is not true". Whatever.
>
Oh, gosh, sorry. Assuming that you might still be on about the thing
that 90% of the entire thread was about was obviously completely silly
of me. Or even trying to use an explanation of some things you might not
know about it, to show how sometimes the gaps people complain about are
not a big, or may not even exist, at least in the sense they talk about
them.
As for questioning whether evidence constitutes truth. I supposed you
have to come up with some definition for "truth" specific to how and who
uses it. The dictionary definitions would tend to imply that a thing be
true, just because its true. In the real world **nothing** works like
that, not even the assertions made by the kinds of people making
statements like, "Its absolutely true that Shiva exists." At some point
someone is going to ask the rather embarrassing questions, "How do you
know?", or, "What evidence do you have?" You are then stuck with either
a) just killing the stupid fool that asked the question, or backing it
with "some sort" of evidence. The questioner has to then make either a
qualitative, a quantitative, or both, judgment about the veracity of
that evidence. Most people don't know the difference between an allele
and and Aunt Lelle, so make a purely quantitative judgment. Some make
bullshit qualitative judgments, based solely on what they *want* to be
true. ID tries to claim that *both* are valid by first insisting that
you only get to be called a true believer *if* you agree with them, then
making the even more stupid claim that being that "true" believers
believe it, the fact that all true believers do believe it, and there
are millions of them, means a damn thing either. So what. Lots of stupid
stuff lots of people believed, and it didn't matter how *true* they
where to that belief, they where still wrong, and better evidence proved
it.
So, what does truth mean precisely? For most people *true* means that
their belief and/or acceptance of it is based on what **they** consider
reasonable qualitative and quantitative evidence. We saw in the Dover
trial what *scientists* consider quantitative and qualitative evidence,
thousands of papers, all supporting each others and prior conclusions,
based on decades of people actually asking questions and looking for
answers by doing research to test their theories. Ken Ham's museum is
base on the *other* sides idea of what qualifies as "quantitative and
qualitative": assertions that the other sides version can't be true,
complaints about stuff they don't understand, references to the
authority of scripture that the vast majority of Christians don't take
literally, declarations that **those** people, unlike the small minority
that do take it literally, can't be Christians, and lots and lots of
claims that any day now they will pull *research* out of their ass that
tests a hypothesis that even they say a) doesn't need to be tested,
because, "qed: its the truth", and which they can't even describe
*anything* about sufficiently to invent any sort of test of it. Their
sole line of "research" is entirely based on coming up with an endless
stream of questions they don't think scientists can answer, ignoring the
answers, and asking the same questions again, while *once in a while*
coming up with yet another mechanism or body part that they can call
"irreducible", as though proving that *anything* can't be proven
sufficiently by evolution automatically means their own hypothesis wins
by default, instead of dozens of other similar ones, most of which are
just as nonreligious as evolution.
In other words, you have scientist saying, "There is no valid grounds at
this point to deny that evolution, by any reasonable definition, is
**true**, even if some parts of it are still uncertain.", and a lot of
goobers whining about how if "any" part of it is ever not explainable,
they win, and calling their constant stream of pseudoscience and
debunked questions "research". This is what *they* think is truth, "If
we defeat the great monster we don't like, then everything we believe
must, automatically, by default, be true, evidence be damned, and so
will all the stupid fools that show up asking for things like facts,
evidence or, you know, lab work, to prove we asking tested anything."
I am not sure what your definition of truth is, but if it comes even
close to what these people are using, you have a huge problem. If its
**at all** based on something closer to the scientific definition, then
your only problem is that you are even less qualified than I am to
complain about them using it (being as I actually understand some of the
stuff you don't get about the subject).
--
void main () {
call functional_code()
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
Post a reply to this message
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
In article <47421b76$1@news.povray.org>, rli### [at] speakeasynet says...
> "Gilles Tran" <gitran_nospam_@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
> news:473d776e$1@news.povray.org...
> > layed out by Claude Bernard in 1865. Here are some quotes:
> >
> > "When we meet a fact which contradicts a prevailing theory, we must acc
ept
> > the fact and abandon the theory, even when the theory is supported by
> great
> > names and generally accepted"
> >
> > "Theories are only verified hypotheses, verified by more or less numero
us
> > facts. Those verified by the most facts are the best, but even then the
y
> are
> > never final, never to be absolutely believed."
> >
> > If you haven't read his book "An introduction to the study of experimen
tal
> > medicine" you should, it's a fantastic read.
> >
> > G.
> >
> >
>
> So we should stop talking of Creationism as a Theory, right? Are there an
y
> facts supporting it's Hypothesis? If not, we should begin calling it the
> Hypothesis of Creationism.
>
> They have stolen our words and weakened them.
>
No, they are just using the layman's definition of theory, which means
"guess". Scientific ones require they first be "possible", as suggested
by actual evidence, before making the leap from guess to theory.
--
void main () {
call functional_code()
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
Post a reply to this message
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
In article <47422be6@news.povray.org>, war### [at] tagpovrayorg says...
> Ross <rli### [at] speakeasynet> wrote:
> > Warp hates the mocking and has yet to offer a viable option to it other
than
> > "Continue to try to convince by presenting the facts." Yet this has fai
led,
> > and failed, and failed. Rather than continue the insanity loop, what sh
ould
> > one do?
>
> Are you saying that making fun of other people is a viable and acceptab
le
> solution?
Well... Lets put it this way. If you know that the odds of doing
nothing, or doing the same things you have done all along, having an
impact is 0%, then if there is even a 1% chance that mocking someone
would work instead, why not do it? Mind you, a valid alternative would
be a lot nicer, like better education. However, we are living in a world
where some moron can spend $30 billion to send troops to a country they
don't belong in, *and* screw up the entire plan while there, but will
then veto a bill adding $1 billion in funding to the NIH, to help find
cures for things like cancer (and in this case also torpedo a bill that
would have **required** all research published in various journals to be
released to the public via PubMed within two years of publication,
instead of burying it on some research labs basement, where 50 people on
the verge of curing some disease might not see it for 20 years, if ever.
A tiny fraction of the research we do in this country is available via
PubMed, and its the ***most*** important source of data on existing
research and discoveries for 90% of all doctors and researchers in the
US, and much of the rest of the western world. His reason? Because he
couldn't allow congress to go on a "spending spree"... And he had his
own rider on there too, which got vetoed with it. Something involving
faith based medical programs, or some similar BS.
When the nuts that won't listen to facts, reason, etc. **are** actively
trying to pull the rug out from under your feet, you have to do
something. If you are not allowed to get pissed off and shoot them, they
won't see "any" reason, and your lack of effect/response is seen as
defense of the idea that they **might** actually be right, damn right
its reasonable to instead get people to laugh at them. You can't make
them uncomfortable by calling them fools, since they will just shout the
same accusation back. But if even a small percentage of people are
actively pointing out how much they look like the village idiot, some of
them *might* be embarrassed enough by the association to question their
perspective.
This does not, by any means, suggest that "everyone" should do so, or
that we should all give up on every other path. That wouldn't work
either. If you want to prove that someone is the village idiot, you have
to point out what *not* being the village idiot means, and that takes
all those things that mostly don't work on these people. Fact is, its
not the people that have had an ethical, social and logical lobotomy
such joking and farce is targeted at. Its the guy that doesn't know a
damn thing about the subject, and might have reacted to us treating
these people like they are honest challengers, instead of a bloody clown
car full of circus performers, as a sign that *both* sides actually have
valid arguments. Right now, in this country, you won't get shot for
showing a picture of Jesus holding a machine gun, the way you will if
you did the same with Mohammad in the ME, but just try to go on the TV,
on *any* news show, on *any* network, or write a book, or film a
documentary, or do "anything" that tries to suggest that one side has no
answers, while the other has, at least, most of them, and watch them a)
edit it to look like the other side has an equally valid argument, write
a review of your book calling it all nonsense, then presenting the
"other" side as if its all truthful, refuse to show your documentary at
all, and or send you masses of hate mail, death threats and talk at
length about you on their televangelist programs, saying that you are
the worst thing since the anti-christ. And watch as the **only** people
that actively defend you against this BS are other people who received
the same treatment.
Its not possible in this environment to get anything in the news or news
papers, without some idiot thinking *equal time* has to be given to some
nut case that knows nothing about the subject at all, and does nothing
but complain about how some crazy strawman version of your views is the
cause of everything from the fall or western civilization to graphetti
and AIDS. And in some papers/news programs, no one is either allowed,
given the opportunity to, and/or bothers to refute any of it. But, such
people are not only allowed to, but actually paid and encouraged, to do
precisely what you think we shouldn't, make scientists look like idiots
and buffoons. And they have been doing that for at least 40 years. In
the 1950s, you might have seen a lot of literature, comics and TV about
mad scientists and the risks of abusing knowledge, but science was
*respected* and not at least pretending to comprehend some of it was a
sign of brain damage (or nearly so), now the trend has been reversed in
some segments of the population, and groups like DI are *actively*
trying to replace science and *any* material explanation for the world,
with faith and magic.
I just don't get why you think they should be allowed to make any idiot
argument they like, be impervious to "any" argument, and continue to use
our *fair* treatment of them as evidence of their supposed "superior"
position, instead of us, for once, being decidedly unfair, and **very**
clear exactly how nuts we think they actually are. Since they will hate
us anyway, it doesn't matter if they like us less after laughing our
asses off at them than before, back when we acted like they where worth
taking seriously in the first place, and lended them unjustified
credibility by doing so.
--
void main () {
call functional_code()
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
Post a reply to this message
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
Warp nous apporta ses lumieres en ce 2007/11/19 17:39:
> Ross <rli### [at] speakeasynet> wrote:
>> For shame. Now you're just mocking him for the sake of mocking.
>
> How unimaginative to reuse the same old joke someone else already used.
>
> What next? Some incomprehensive allusion to rabbits?
>
Vorpal rabbits?
--
Alain
-------------------------------------------------
Gone crazy, be back later, leave message.
Post a reply to this message
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
Patrick Elliott wrote:
> DI is claiming that this: "Q: Can you accept evolution and still believe
> in religion? A: Yes. The common view that evolution is inherently anti-
> religious is simply false."
That's correct. Nothing is inherently anti-religious, because religion
is illogical and irrational. Truth is not inherently anti-religious,
falseness is not inherently anti-religious. Religion is a contradictory
logical system within which anything can be proven, disproven, and
change on a whim.
So evolution has nothing to say about religion, no. They're orthogonal.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
It's not feature creep if you put it
at the end and adjust the release date.
Post a reply to this message
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
Warp wrote:
> That is what bothered me.
Fair enough. Thanks for answering the question.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
It's not feature creep if you put it
at the end and adjust the release date.
Post a reply to this message
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
Warp wrote:
> No, what I said was that some scientists (not all) have an arrogant
> attitude and seem to know the truth, and they act all like the theory
> of evolution was an axiom.
It explains pretty much everything, and it's used on a daily basis
world-wide to make drugs and other predictions. People have used the
theory of evolution to figure out where to dig for new species, given
the genes of (IIRC) deer and whales, finding the Missing Link between
the two when mammals went back into the water.
Sure, it might be wrong, but then maybe the world really *is* flat, too,
and maybe there's no gravity it's just the earth sucks.
It really doesn't make sense to say "Gee, everything we've done for the
last 50 years has worked flawlessly, and everything we've predicted has
come true. But maybe we're doing things ALL WRONG and there's some
COMPLETELY DIFFERENT theory that would explain every experiment and
observation every biologist, geneticist, doctor, and nurse has made over
the last 50 years, *and* includes spontaneous generation of life?"
It seems utterly irrational to me that you'd reject the whole thing
without any reason. Postulate that perhaps there's something else, in
addition, that might be going on that we're not always seeing? Sure.
That doesn't mean evolution is *wrong*, but that there's other stuff as
well going on.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
It's not feature creep if you put it
at the end and adjust the release date.
Post a reply to this message
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
