![](/i/fill.gif) |
![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
On 1/16/2011 10:22 AM, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> Part of your problem might be that there is no real debate
>
> Sure. I'm really just trying to get a feel for whether many europeans
> think of it as "us against them" when it comes to the government, or
> whether they think their government is succeeding, or at least failing
> due to something other than malice (like it being a fundamentally
> difficult task).
>
>> sorry, can't parse that.
>
> Basically, I was saying "it seems the goverment is much more toxic in
> the USA than I remember from when I was younger. Is it really more toxic
> than other civilized western governments, or am I just remembering poorly?"
>
I think, in the US, we have seen a marriage, on the left, between a
sense of social justice that allows for change, and woo. This is bad,
since woo isn't based on fact, so you get what I like to call "chaos
theory social engineering". Try things, even if someone is telling you
it won't work, and why, just to see if they *can* work. On the right we
have a marriage between capitalism, a distorted version of Ann Rand, and
the view, "I have mine, screw you!". Rand's "heroes", as someone pointed
out, honored contracts, paid decent wages, etc., as a social contract to
those around them, they didn't just try to maximize profit. They are the
capitalist equivalent of the socialist worker, who gives everything, for
the good of the whole. Neither exist. She probably would have been
appalled at what Wall Street has turned into, and done, but she might
not have really grasped why it derived *directly* from her own philosophy.
In the cases of both Ann Rand capitalism, and pure socialism, you start
with the baseline assumptions of either, in the first case, perfect
knowledge, and no one willing to shoot themselves in the foot, by
cheating, and in the later, basically unlimited resources, and perfect
means to distribute them. Both are pure, absolute, fictions.
What you end up with, in Ann's model, is people cheating, lying, and
underpaying their workers, while believing they are doing the best they
can for society, after all *they* are doing just fine, and then adding
to that the argument, "And so, I also don't need to give some government
money to help people who, in my imaginary world, are just too lazy to
work, and don't really need the help."
Or, as someone recently blogged it, "Examining the reason why
conservatives in general don't like programs, it always seems, when you
boil away the rhetoric, to be, 'I don't like it/need it, so I shouldn't
have to pay for/allow it.'"
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
Post a reply to this message
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
On 16-1-2011 18:22, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> Part of your problem might be that there is no real debate
>
> Sure. I'm really just trying to get a feel for whether many europeans
> think of it as "us against them" when it comes to the government, or
> whether they think their government is succeeding, or at least failing
> due to something other than malice (like it being a fundamentally
> difficult task).
>
>> sorry, can't parse that.
>
> Basically, I was saying "it seems the goverment is much more toxic in
> the USA than I remember from when I was younger. Is it really more toxic
> than other civilized western governments, or am I just remembering poorly?"
You're getting old. Complaining that it used to be better is what old
men have been doing for as long as they could write. ;)
Post a reply to this message
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
On 16-1-2011 18:26, Darren New wrote:
> Warp wrote:
>> Keeping a country afloat economically, politically and socially requires
>> that the people making decisions want to do that.
>
> Yes. I'm worried that the USA is racing towards the brink in that respect.
>
> Thank you for your extended response and the time it took. It sounds
> like you're mostly happy but it seems to also be slowly changing for the
> worse in some important ways.
Nah, Warp is also getting a few years older ;)
Post a reply to this message
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
On Fri, 14 Jan 2011 19:57:29 -0500, Darren New <dne### [at] san rr com> wrote:
> Do you believe your government is working in the best interests of the
> people of the country?
Without really getting into "why" and "how", I will just say "no" and
leave it there.
> If you answer, what country are you in?
USA
--
Ian McDonald
Lean Agile .NET 4.0/MVC
Senior Application Architect,
Developer and Security Analyst
Post a reply to this message
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
andrel <byt### [at] gmail com> writes:
> only a moral duty to their shareholders). In Europe it is not as bad as
> in most countries there is still also a public funded politically
> independent broadcasting system. Yet also here there is too often no
> real debate, I agree with Warp on that.
So does the US (NPR & PBS).
Post a reply to this message
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
Darren New <dne### [at] san rr com> writes:
> Do you believe your government is working in the best interests of the
> people of the country? If you answer, what country are you in?
Define government: Federal? State? City? My general perception is that
corruption goes up the larger the constituency. It's hard to speak about
"best interests", but I'd say once you get to the federal level, it
seems that the primary concern is electability. Most do the most they
can to benefit themselves within that constraint. Electability is what
is supposed to guarantee that the country gains as well.
Always counterexamples, of course.
> I think a lot of what happens in the USA, a lot of what Americans
> complain about, is that it's pretty obvious that in spite of what the
> people want, and in spite of what would be good for the country as a
> whole, it just keeps not happening, regardless of who gets elected. How
How often have these people who complain a lot decided to "make
compromises" and end up voting Republican or Democrat? As long as that
is their reasoned approach, the party they vote for has no incentive to
cater to them.
Post a reply to this message
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
Neeum Zawan wrote:
> Define government: Federal? State? City? My general perception is that
> corruption goes up the larger the constituency.
Same here. Except HOAs maybe. :-)
> "best interests", but I'd say once you get to the federal level, it
> seems that the primary concern is electability. Most do the most they
> can to benefit themselves within that constraint. Electability is what
> is supposed to guarantee that the country gains as well.
Yep. But I think they're less worried about getting re-elected now than
they were, perhaps.
> How often have these people who complain a lot decided to "make
> compromises" and end up voting Republican or Democrat? As long as that
> is their reasoned approach, the party they vote for has no incentive to
> cater to them.
Yep. But the very idea that "as long as I get reelected, I'll do anything I
can get away with" is what I'm talking about. I mean, we have all kinds of
scandals, the whole gitmo bay thing, the whole wikileaks thing, etc etc.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Serving Suggestion:
"Don't serve this any more. It's awful."
Post a reply to this message
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
On 18-1-2011 4:30, Neeum Zawan wrote:
> andrel<byt### [at] gmail com> writes:
>
>> only a moral duty to their shareholders). In Europe it is not as bad as
>> in most countries there is still also a public funded politically
>> independent broadcasting system. Yet also here there is too often no
>> real debate, I agree with Warp on that.
>
> So does the US (NPR& PBS).
>
Never seen those. Not even when I was in the states as far as I can
remember. How many people watching these channels?
Post a reply to this message
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
> Do you believe your government is working in the best interests of the
> people of the country? If you answer, what country are you in?
You can't answer that correctly unless you have access to the same
information and expertise that the government has. On the one hand the
government shouldn't be able to do anything they want without a way for
the people to stop them, but on the other hand a lot of decisions the
government take might be too complex for the general population to
understand completely. In those cases you probably don't want to risk
the general population voting against it and then unknowingly preventing
the best outcome for the country.
Post a reply to this message
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
andrel <byt### [at] gmail com> writes:
> On 18-1-2011 4:30, Neeum Zawan wrote:
>> andrel<byt### [at] gmail com> writes:
>>
>>> only a moral duty to their shareholders). In Europe it is not as bad as
>>> in most countries there is still also a public funded politically
>>> independent broadcasting system. Yet also here there is too often no
>>> real debate, I agree with Warp on that.
>>
>> So does the US (NPR& PBS).
>>
> Never seen those. Not even when I was in the states as far as I can
> remember. How many people watching these channels?
Don't really know - I'm sure PBS is fairly low in comparison to all the
other channels. NPR is the radio station, and I suspect a lot more
people listen to it while driving.
Post a reply to this message
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |
| ![](/i/fill.gif) |
|
![](/i/fill.gif) |