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Warp wrote:
> The need to have censuses in order to know who is a natural born citizen
> (so that they can be called to jury duty) demonstrates the problem.
We don't. The census is for figuring out how many seats on the legislature
each area needs. Most times jury duty is based on driver licenses, voter
registration, or other state-level information like that. Maybe even state
income tax or property tax forms, if that's legal in their state.
This couple is just guessing the jury duty call came off the census. I'd be
surprised if that was the case, given that such information isn't generally
released by the federal government in a way that could be used to identify
individuals.
It might have easily come off the paperwork you use to prove your pets have
had rabies vaccinations, if someone filled out the wrong name on the wrong
line, for example.
But no, the census here isn't so the government can keep track of who is
here. It's supposedly purely so we know how many representatives each state
gets. They're really not authorized to use the information for anything
else, altho they do.
> In Finland there would be no need for that. The government knows every
> single citizen and can call them (for whatever) if needed.
It must make things much easier to have a government that's trusted. :-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Forget "focus follows mouse." When do
I get "focus follows gaze"?
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Darren New <dne### [at] san rrcom> wrote:
> > In Finland there would be no need for that. The government knows every
> > single citizen and can call them (for whatever) if needed.
> It must make things much easier to have a government that's trusted. :-)
Distrust in the government and the government knowing all citizens are
not mutually exclusive things.
It would be rather difficult, and foolish, to try to have a child
without the government knowing. (It would be foolish because you would
be forgoing child support, tons of free services, and making your child's
life a nightmare later.)
--
- Warp
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On 7-2-2010 22:38, Warp wrote:
> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>>> In Finland there would be no need for that. The government knows every
>>> single citizen and can call them (for whatever) if needed.
>
>> It must make things much easier to have a government that's trusted. :-)
>
> Distrust in the government and the government knowing all citizens are
> not mutually exclusive things.
>
> It would be rather difficult, and foolish, to try to have a child
> without the government knowing. (It would be foolish because you would
> be forgoing child support, tons of free services, and making your child's
> life a nightmare later.)
Indeed, although this might sound that it is a recent invention. Even a
one century or more ago it was useful to register your children. It is
easy to see that if you track children born and their parents for a few
generations (and register all immigrants) you know every legal person in
the country.
I have often wondered why the US do not track all citizens. E.g. why
does one city not notify the city someone has come from when they go to
live in that new city? It would also be handy to get useful information
like if someone was convicted for a serious crime and has therefore no
right to vote. Or is that precisely the reason why they are not allowed
to share information?
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Warp wrote:
> Distrust in the government and the government knowing all citizens are
> not mutually exclusive things.
Somewhat true. I don't want to Godwin the thread, but it *has* been abused
in the past when things went horribly wrong. :-)
> It would be rather difficult, and foolish, to try to have a child
> without the government knowing. (It would be foolish because you would
> be forgoing child support, tons of free services, and making your child's
> life a nightmare later.)
Sure. That doesn't mean the government knows where that kid is living 30
years later and how to get in touch with her. Adults are paying taxes, kids
have to get vaccines to go to school, etc.
However, we have a rather compartmentalized government here. The state
government knows what kids are born and going to school, the federal
government knows who is paying federal taxes, and the counties
(approximately city-sized areas for cities, or large for rural areas) are
the ones responsible for collecting people for juries.
The government knows John Smith was born 30 years ago. They don't
necessarily know he's homeless in San Diego right now.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Forget "focus follows mouse." When do
I get "focus follows gaze"?
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andrel wrote:
> Indeed, although this might sound that it is a recent invention.
Not really. Wasn't Jesus supposedly traveling for the roman census? There's
a reason it's a latin word. :-)
> Even a
> one century or more ago it was useful to register your children. It is
> easy to see that if you track children born and their parents for a few
> generations (and register all immigrants) you know every legal person in
> the country.
Yes. It's just not centralized. If you're born in Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania, people might have to actually travel to Philadelphia to prove
it. Just follow any of the Obama birth certificate nonsense.
> I have often wondered why the US do not track all citizens. E.g. why
> does one city not notify the city someone has come from when they go to
> live in that new city?
Because we have many levels of government. City, county, state, federal. How
would you recommend you get every city and town in the country doing this?
And yes, maybe now that everything is on computers, it might be easier, but
roll back 50 years when stuff was done on paper, and you can see where the
records today wouldn't be anywhere near accurate.
> It would also be handy to get useful information
> like if someone was convicted for a serious crime and has therefore no
> right to vote.
We have that information. It's just not given to the people who make up jury
lists, for example.
Plus, I just don't see where it's valuable for me, personally, to have the
government track where I live. The people in the government that need to
know about different parts of my life already get to know that: the
governments where I have to pay taxes know how much money I make, the
governments that run the schools know how many kids I have, the governments
where I own property know who owns the property, etc. What benefit is it to
me to have Texas know how much my house in San Diego costs, or how many
children I have and how old they are?
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Forget "focus follows mouse." When do
I get "focus follows gaze"?
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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> Sure. That doesn't mean the government knows where that kid is living 30
> years later and how to get in touch with her.
They do here. The government must know where to send tax forms, for
instance. (When you move you have to inform the government about it.
Doing that is actually a lot more beneficial than one could hastily think.
That's because your info will be automatically updated in a ton of places,
so you don't have to report your new address to a million places.)
--
- Warp
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"Warp" <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote in message
news:4b6f130e@news.povray.org...
> In Finland there would be no need for that. The government knows
every
> single citizen and can call them (for whatever) if needed.
Seems Finland has had two of them...
From Wikipedia:
Finland:
The first population census was taken in 1749 when Finland was a part
of Sweden. The most recent census took place on December 31, 2000.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census#Finland
~db
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Warp wrote:
> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>> Sure. That doesn't mean the government knows where that kid is living 30
>> years later and how to get in touch with her.
>
> They do here. The government must know where to send tax forms, for
> instance.
Yes. I understand that most people in Finland (and many other european
countries) manage to get away with the pre-filled-out form for taxes that
the government sends. I saw a study where they said 60% to 70% of the people
in the USA file taxes with no information other than what the tax authority
already knows.
> (When you move you have to inform the government about it.
Your mistake is treating it as if the USA has one government. "The
government" does know where you live, for the most part. Just not the folks
who do the jury duty.
When you move, you (usually) tell the post office where to forward your
mail. Your name is on the deed. But the post office doesn't tell the county
land registrar, and vice versa, that you've moved.
It also breaks down if (for example) you are in the military getting
reassigned, away at college for a few months, etc.
And regardless of all that, a cat shouldn't be called to jury duty. ;-)
> Doing that is actually a lot more beneficial than one could hastily think.
> That's because your info will be automatically updated in a ton of places,
> so you don't have to report your new address to a million places.)
Sure, having a central registry like that would be handy in many ways.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Forget "focus follows mouse." When do
I get "focus follows gaze"?
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On 8-2-2010 5:49, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> Indeed, although this might sound that it is a recent invention.
>
> Not really. Wasn't Jesus supposedly traveling for the roman census?
> There's a reason it's a latin word. :-)
Funny, I was referring to the idea that it is useful to register your
children not the census.
>> Even a one century or more ago it was useful to register your
>> children. It is easy to see that if you track children born and their
>> parents for a few generations (and register all immigrants) you know
>> every legal person in the country.
>
> Yes. It's just not centralized. If you're born in Philadelphia,
> Pennsylvania, people might have to actually travel to Philadelphia to
> prove it. Just follow any of the Obama birth certificate nonsense.
>
>> I have often wondered why the US do not track all citizens. E.g. why
>> does one city not notify the city someone has come from when they go
>> to live in that new city?
>
> Because we have many levels of government. City, county, state, federal.
> How would you recommend you get every city and town in the country doing
> this? And yes, maybe now that everything is on computers, it might be
> easier, but roll back 50 years when stuff was done on paper, and you can
> see where the records today wouldn't be anywhere near accurate.
The Netherlands is no less complicated, yet we have been able to do it
for about 200 years. Basically since Napoleon.
>> It would also be handy to get useful information like if someone was
>> convicted for a serious crime and has therefore no right to vote.
>
> We have that information. It's just not given to the people who make up
> jury lists, for example.
>
> Plus, I just don't see where it's valuable for me, personally, to have
> the government track where I live. The people in the government that
> need to know about different parts of my life already get to know that:
> the governments where I have to pay taxes know how much money I make,
> the governments that run the schools know how many kids I have, the
> governments where I own property know who owns the property, etc. What
> benefit is it to me to have Texas know how much my house in San Diego
> costs, or how many children I have and how old they are?
A very American remark. ;)
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andrel wrote:
> The Netherlands is no less complicated, yet we have been able to do it
> for about 200 years. Basically since Napoleon.
We never had a dictator to set that stuff up for us, yes. :-)
> A very American remark. ;)
Yes, very much. We have a long history of not trusting our government. Our
revolution is still young enough to be alive and well, especially given that
the founders of the country didn't trust the very government they were
setting up. I think many here look at individual conveniences (such as only
having one place where you need to change your address) as much less
important than the slim likelihood that something disastrous (such as
rounding up all the <ethnic>s) will happen. (Note: I'm not saying this is
right, logical, reasonable, etc. I'm just saying how it is. :-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Forget "focus follows mouse." When do
I get "focus follows gaze"?
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