somebody wrote:
> Indeed, there's the epistemological issues. As a kid, many of us might have
> thought being forced, and sometimes tricked, into eating broccoli was
> torture, and hence an evil act. 

I think that this is a bogus argument, basically because it's trivial to 
imagine a world where all the things that taste good are the ones that are 
good for you. Being forced to eat broccoli seems like evil because it *is* 
evil - it's bad that healthy stuff tastes awful. Indeed, it's bad that there 
even is such a thing as unhealthy food.

This is the "it's good for you to suffer" argument, which is a subset of the 
"it isn't really evil after all" argument that I found clearly described.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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Kevin Wampler wrote:
> I'm instead pointing out that he ignores the viewpoint that might be 
> most simply summed up "while the Holocaust was evil, creating a universe 
> in which the holocaust could/would happen isn't necessarily".  Now, you 
> could certainly attempt to make an argument against this point, but I 
> don't see him doing it.

Oh, I see what you mean.  I'll have to think about this more.  It's kind of 
late here. :-)

> Basically, I'm arguing that there's a version of the "moves in 
> mysterious ways" argument which his points don't apply to.

Yes, I grok now, after rereading a few times.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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Darren New wrote:
> You're saying "maybe the world would be more evil without the holocaust, 
> you just can't tell."  That's *exactly* the argument he's talking about.
> 
> ...
> 
> "the evil things in it are perfectly justified and necessary, and 
> everything is for the best"
> 
> What mysterious ways are you talking about? That maybe God's idea of 
> good doesn't match ours? Then he'd do evil by our definitions. That's 
> saying that polio is actually good, and we just don't realize it

NOTE: just saw your other response, but I'd already gone and typed this 
all out so I may as well post it.  If what you'd groked from my posts 
contradicts what I've written below I'd certainly be interested in 
hearing the argument that you thought I was making (maybe it's a better 
argument!)

---

I think this is what he doesn't address properly.  What he musters is this:

"Of course, one of the consequences of this is then that we are also too 
cognitively limited to understand what’s right and wrong"

This, unfortunately, doesn't follow from the point I'm making.  What 
would follow is that we're too cognitively limited to understand what's 
right and wrong for *God*, but it's perfectly consistent to believe that 
doesn't at all preclude us from understand what's right and wrong for 
humans.

Now, I realize that this may come across as "well maybe God wanted us to 
get polio", but that's not the view I'm talking about.  Rather it's the 
view that God's decisions would be made at a scale so much larger than 
ours that there might well be reasons (possibly beyond our 
comprehension) which make a universe which allows such things a "good" 
thing.  One might even say this would be expected considering the 
immeasurably vast scale on which God would be making decisions.

What this particular line of reasoning *would* entail, however, is that 
the concept of good as it applies to God sure doesn't seem to involve 
minimizing our earthly suffering as it's primary factor -- but I don't 
see how this is inconsistent or how it diminishes/undermines moral 
choice as we typically understand it on our human level (the latter of 
which seems to be his overall point).


> Otherwise, I'm not seeing what you're trying to say. Maybe I'm 
> just dense today.

I suppose I'd say that my point is that one could take the view that our 
earthly suffering simply isn't the primary factor in the decisions made 
by God, and that this doesn't preclude that there may be many ways in 
which such a God could be "good".

His argument, on the other hand, seems to be implicitly using the 
assumption that God is chose how to make the universe with the reduction 
of earthly human suffering as the primary moral factor.  This makes 
perfect sense in rebutting certain religious arguments, but he phrases 
his initial problem more generally than that, and I don't his reasoning 
carries over to the viewpoint I mention.

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somebody wrote:
> Good point. But does that we can imagine Event Horizon mean that we can
> imagine anything and everything worse? Maybe the bad smell objectors can
> imagine us but not Event Horizon. And yet, imagination may not be the key. I
> can imagine an 824 billion light years tall man - or rather, I may think, or
> claim, that I can imagine such a thing. You can very well doubt the
> legitimacy of such imagination. I can similarly doubt that
> bad-smell-objectors can legitimately imagine Even Horizon, let alone us.

Tangental to that, on the topic of imagination.  The brain-in-vat thing 
is shot down by the idea that, if we *were*, we'd be unable to conceive 
of the notion of a brain-in-a-vat.  But doesn't that totally disregard 
imagination?  We can imagine things that we have no experience of, and 
assign form to things that may or may not even be able to exist.

> Necessity of evil is a theistic angle. I don't find evil necessary - that
> would be like finding gravity necessary. Gravity is not necessary, it just
> is. However, I find it pretty much necessary that there will be things that
> sentient beings will find evil, for senses have to differentiate between
> inputs.

Gravity might well be necessary, once we discover what the heck it IS.

--
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.freesitespace.net

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Darren New wrote:
> I think that this is a bogus argument, basically because it's trivial to 
> imagine a world where all the things that taste good are the ones that 
> are good for you. Being forced to eat broccoli seems like evil because 
> it *is* evil - it's bad that healthy stuff tastes awful. Indeed, it's 
> bad that there even is such a thing as unhealthy food.

I never had a problem with eating broccoli.  And the first time I tried 
brussels sprouts when I was a kid, I was greatly confused at their 
infamy, as I found them rather tasty.

--
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.freesitespace.net

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Tim Cook wrote:
> Tangental to that, on the topic of imagination.  The brain-in-vat thing 
> is shot down by the idea that, if we *were*, we'd be unable to conceive 
> of the notion of a brain-in-a-vat. 

I can't imagine why that would be the case. No, if we're all computer 
simulations, you could argue that the simulation might be programmed to 
prevent us from noticing it's a simulation. But an evolved brain in a vat?

> Gravity might well be necessary, once we discover what the heck it IS.

I think the whole concept of "necessary" conflicts with the concept of 
"omnipotence."

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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Kevin Wampler wrote:
> "Of course, one of the consequences of this is then that we are also to
o 
> cognitively limited to understand what’s right and wrong"
> 
> This, unfortunately, doesn't follow from the point I'm making.  What 
> would follow is that we're too cognitively limited to understand what's
 
> right and wrong for *God*, but it's perfectly consistent to believe tha
t 
> doesn't at all preclude us from understand what's right and wrong for 
> humans.

I think the idea that there are different kinds of good and evil is at od
ds 
with the concept that doing what God wants is good. You're still using th
e 
"god moves in mysterious ways" argument, that we cannot understand what 
"good" is. You're just modifying it by saying "we can understand human go
od, 
but not god good." For most christians and muslims, I think the idea that
 
god's goodness is inferior to human goodness is bogus. The idea that ther
e 
are things that humans can do that's good that God would think is evil or
 
vice versa doesn't fly. Perhaps he didn't state that explicitly.

But as soon as you start putting in relativistic goodness rather than 
absolute goodness, where something that's good for me is bad for you, the
n 
the whole "do what God says" justification goes out the window.

> Now, I realize that this may come across as "well maybe God wanted us t
o 
> get polio", but that's not the view I'm talking about.  Rather it's the
 
> view that God's decisions would be made at a scale so much larger than 

> ours that there might well be reasons (possibly beyond our 
> comprehension) which make a universe which allows such things a "good" 

> thing.  One might even say this would be expected considering the 
> immeasurably vast scale on which God would be making decisions.

Sure. That's the "free will" argument. God allows evil because disallowin
g 
people being evil to each other would reduce their "free will" to commit 
evil.

I don't think you're going to find many full-blown step-by-step explanati
ons 
on the topic, because it has already been beaten to death for the last 30
00 
years.

> What this particular line of reasoning *would* entail, however, is that
 
> the concept of good as it applies to God sure doesn't seem to involve 
> minimizing our earthly suffering as it's primary factor

I think that's what he's talking about in the second half. If by definiti
on 
God is good, and goodness doesn't involve minimizing suffering, then bein
g 
tortured and killed is good.

>> Otherwise, I'm not seeing what you're trying to say. Maybe I'm just 
>> dense today.
> 
> I suppose I'd say that my point is that one could take the view that ou
r 
> earthly suffering simply isn't the primary factor in the decisions made
 
> by God, and that this doesn't preclude that there may be many ways in 
> which such a God could be "good".

Well, the christian God is supposed to be a personal god. The Islamic god
 is 
in control of every aspect of life, as I understand it.

This certainly works if God is either not omnipotent or doesn't really ca
re 
about people. But then you wind up with gods like Zeus.

> His argument, on the other hand, seems to be implicitly using the 
> assumption that God is chose how to make the universe with the reductio
n 
> of earthly human suffering as the primary moral factor. 

I don't think so. His assumption is "God is good and omnipotent" plus "ev
il 
exists". So you're either saying "human suffering isn't evil" or "God isn
't 
omnipotent enough to make a world with less evil than it now contains."

If you start with the assumption that God's idea of "good" doesn't match 

ours, then you're ignoring the "God is good" assumption, which of course 
has 
to read as an absolute. Otherwise you have no moral standing to tell peop
le 
what God wants them to do.

Anyway, what I thought you were saying is along the lines of "it's good t
o 
discover the secrets of how atoms work", and "it's evil to use that to bl
ow 
up cities". Just because the holocaust happened doesn't mean it's inheren
tly 
evil to create a world in which the holocaust can happen.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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Darren New wrote:
> I think the whole concept of "necessary" conflicts with the concept of 
> "omnipotence."

Why?  As a supposition:  gravity is necessary as the mechanism by which 
mass affects things, which does not preclude God being aware of all 
properties of all particles and fields in existence.

The Heisenberg uncertainty principle, however, *does* preclude omnipotence.

--
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.freesitespace.net

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Tim Cook wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> I think the whole concept of "necessary" conflicts with the concept of 
>> "omnipotence."
> 
> Why?  As a supposition:  gravity is necessary as the mechanism by which 
> mass affects things, which does not preclude God being aware of all 
> properties of all particles and fields in existence.

You're confusing omniscience with omnipotence.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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Darren New wrote:
> I think the idea that there are different kinds of good and evil is at 
> odds with the concept that doing what God wants is good. You're still 
> using the "god moves in mysterious ways" argument, that we cannot 
> understand what "good" is. You're just modifying it by saying "we can 
> understand human good, but not god good." For most christians and 
> muslims, I think the idea that god's goodness is inferior to human 
> goodness is bogus. The idea that there are things that humans can do 
> that's good that God would think is evil or vice versa doesn't fly. 
> Perhaps he didn't state that explicitly.
> 
> But as soon as you start putting in relativistic goodness rather than 
> absolute goodness, where something that's good for me is bad for you, 
> then the whole "do what God says" justification goes out the window.

I suspect they might be more amenable to the concept that God's "good" 
is superior (rather than inferior) to the human version.  Theoretically 
  it could also be the case that the underlying concepts are the same 
but that God's decisions are so vast that we can't comprehend how the 
same principles are are work.

Nevertheless, I should make clear that I wasn't talking about 
"mainstream" Christian/Muslim viewpoints.  Perhaps the author was, and 
by beef is really that he didn't make that more clear.


> Sure. That's the "free will" argument. God allows evil because 
> disallowing people being evil to each other would reduce their "free 
> will" to commit evil.

Free will is one scenario which would fit under such an explanation, but 
one could probably imagine others as well.


> Well, the christian God is supposed to be a personal god. The Islamic 
> god is in control of every aspect of life, as I understand it.
> 
> This certainly works if God is either not omnipotent or doesn't really 
> care about people. But then you wind up with gods like Zeus.

You could make the view work with a personal God by assuming that all 
our earthly suffering end up being for the better (or unimportant) once 
you consider the afterlife (not a traditional view, I'm aware, but I 
think it's consistent).


> If you start with the assumption that God's idea of "good" doesn't match 
> ours, then you're ignoring the "God is good" assumption, which of course 
> has to read as an absolute. Otherwise you have no moral standing to tell 
> people what God wants them to do.

Oh yes, certainly.  Under this view it's much tricker to make claims 
about what God wants us to do, although I still think it's possible. 
For instance, once could assume that morality is based on intent rather 
than action.  Then we could still know what's good, and this would 
coincide with what God thinks is good.  The difference is that we would 
have no reason to think that we would actually *do* what God would have 
done, but rather that what's important is that we did it for noble reasons.

Under this view the apparent existence of evil (assuming omnipotence) 
would be because God's considerations is creating the universe are far 
removed from our day-to-day sufferings (surely a plausible assumption). 
  Again, I agree that you'd need more work to fit this into a standard 
Christian view, but I suspect it's fully possible.


> Anyway, what I thought you were saying is along the lines of "it's good 
> to discover the secrets of how atoms work", and "it's evil to use that 
> to blow up cities". Just because the holocaust happened doesn't mean 
> it's inherently evil to create a world in which the holocaust can happen.

I was also making this point, which one would classify under the 
umbrella of "God has the same morality, but makes decisions at a 
different scale".

I think the main problem is that I took him to be arguing against 
problem of evil rebuttals in the abstract, philosophical sense, whereas 
he seems to be making a point only about particular sorts of theistic 
views in which you have a relatively personal God and in which our time 
on Earth really does matter (as opposed to the afterlife being the man 
deal).  Certainly many people have exactly these views, but since I'd 
assumed he was making a broader argument his insistence on attacking 
that one section seemed like a "straw man" argument to me.

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