andrel wrote:
> For this argument to make sense one would also need to give at least 
> some believable arguments that armed civilians would have *prevented* 
> Russia 1917, Germany 1933, and China 1949, to name a few.

You just have to show it happened sometimes, not every time.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> For this argument to make sense one would also need to give at least 
>> some believable arguments that armed civilians would have *prevented* 
>> Russia 1917, Germany 1933, and China 1949, to name a few.
> 
> You just have to show it happened sometimes, not every time.
> 

That's like saying that to ban apples, we need to show that someone 
somewhere died from eating too many apples.

That it happens once, a few times, or several times is of no 
significance.  Instead, we need to look at a proportion out of all 
countries.

How many countries during the same time frame have had their governments 
replaced by less controlling regimes?

How many countries during the same time frame haven't even had a change 
of government?

...Chambers

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On 4-10-2009 20:49, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> For this argument to make sense one would also need to give at least 
>> some believable arguments that armed civilians would have *prevented* 
>> Russia 1917, Germany 1933, and China 1949, to name a few.
> 
> You just have to show it happened sometimes, not every time.
> 
Actually in the majority of times would be enough to make the claim that 
on average it is better to have your civilians armed to protect the 
constitution. If we cut a few corners, in Russia and in China it was 
armed civilians that established the totalitarian regime. Germany may be 
a bit more complicated as that was a democratic 'coup'. Yet, I don't 
think anyone would argue that it would have been prevented if the 
civilians were armed.
Ok, let me think of other totalitarian regimes:
- Cuba: same as Russia and China
- Lybia: (would that count as totalitarian?)[off to wikipedia...] 
military coup. I don't know enough of the political situation at the 
time to judge if this could be a case in favor of fire arms for 
civilians. My guess would be that it would not have worked, but who knows.

How about arming the Russian civilians in the 80's or the Chinese 
peasants with guns. Would that have lead to a armed coup to install a 
democratic government? It is a hypothetical situation so you can invent 
your own answer. I'd say the idea is too improbable to even consider it 
seriously.

Anyone can think of other totalitarian regimes and if there might be a 
case to make that armed civilians would have prevented that?

Failing that, I summarize that also this argument for guns by civilians 
has been totally busted (as they say in a TV show).

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On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 11:48:29 -0700, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:

>Stephen wrote:
>> Yes, America is the best country in the world :P
>
>I didn't say best. Indeed, I already said it probably didn't have to do with 
>gun laws.

Sorry when I googled the phrase that is what I got. That and your new president
laying it on with a trowel during the election.
I'm sure that's not what you meant but I couldn't resist a gentle poke, cousin
:)
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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Stephen wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Oct 2009 11:48:29 -0700, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> 
>> Stephen wrote:
>>> Yes, America is the best country in the world :P
>> I didn't say best. Indeed, I already said it probably didn't have to do with 
>> gun laws.
> 
> Sorry when I googled the phrase that is what I got.

I'm not sure what phrase you're referring to, but OK.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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andrel wrote:
> How about arming the Russian civilians in the 80's or the Chinese 
> peasants with guns. Would that have lead to a armed coup to install a 
> democratic government?

Uh, they had a democratic government, and took the totalitarian one by 
preference. Most people in china are quite happy with their government.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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Darren New wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> Darren New wrote:
>>> I wasn't really talking about the politicians, but about the gun 
>>> owners that you don't hear about.
>>>
>> And, if you don't hear about them, they exist how? Is this sort of 
>> like the ID argument, "I don't see anything, so dog must be doing it." 
>> lol
> 
> I was saying that the gun owners aren't all loud crazy people. Only the 
> gun owners you hear about on the news are loud crazy people.  What makes 
> you think quiet sane people don't own most of the guns?
> 
Not what I am saying. The sane people already had them. You don't get a 
lot of clear thinking people buying up guns, when people start making 
them all scared. Its people "prone" to fall for such paranoia that do. 
My own family owns some themselves. Most haven't been out of lockup 
since the last time one of us went hunting some place. The guy down the 
street, that just bought one to hide under his pillow... is not thinking 
rationally. And if he bought it because he "needed" to have it close, 
because running to the one under the couch cushions might not let them 
fight off the imaginary bad guys, well... lol

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void main () {
   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

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Darren New wrote:
> Chambers wrote:
>> If that were the case, then shouldn't all the other countries with 
>> tougher gun control have been replaced by totalitarian regimes by now?
> 
> Many of them have been. The USA is arguably[1] one of the countries with 
> the longest continuous government. (Altho I don't expect that's really 
> due to the gun laws. :-)
> 
> [1] The argument being how you measure "continuous". One can measure it 
> in a way that very few governments are older.
> 
Its also the country with the highest number of people in jail, the 
highest levels of drug use, the highest cases of teen pregnancies, the 
highest rate of violent crime, the highest level of science denial, etc. 
Well, once you discount places like the ME, since compared to them, we 
have only the "second highest" number of religious fanatics.

Somehow, I would hate to think that "longest continuous government" 
requires any or all of these things, to survive this long. And, its not 
so clear why, "only modern country that has relatively weak gun laws", 
is on the "good things" side of the line, instead of right up there with 
the other list. ;) lol

-- 
void main () {
   If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
     if version = "Vista" {
       call slow_by_half();
       call DRM_everything();
     }
     call functional_code();
   }
   else
     call crash_windows();
}

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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Not what I am saying. The sane people already had them. You don't get a 
> lot of clear thinking people buying up guns, when people start making 

Fair enough. But when 150 million people already own guns, the 2 million 
crazies are less of a problem. :-)

> And if he bought it because he "needed" to have it close, 

Yeah. I'll have to ask my cop brother where he keeps his. I know he has a 
bunch, but I naturally never saw them.

His kid is *very* gun-safety aware. Like, if he sticks his finger in the 
dart-gun trigger before he's ready to shoot, he gets scolded. But they're 
all afraid of him at the paint-ball games.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Its also the country with the highest number of people in jail,

Not necessarily. We count people in jail awaiting trial. Other countries don't.

> highest levels of drug use, 

Hard to measure, I'd think.

> the highest cases of teen pregnancies, the 
> highest rate of violent crime, the highest level of science denial, etc. 

That I'd believe.

> Somehow, I would hate to think that "longest continuous government" 
> requires any or all of these things, to survive this long. 

It doesn't. I'm thinking it's because of the flexibility of the constitution 
along with its inflexibility in some respects.

> And, its not 
> so clear why, "only modern country that has relatively weak gun laws", 
> is on the "good things" side of the line, instead of right up there with 
> the other list. ;) lol

True, but you also have to ask about the attitudes behind it. We're also one 
of the few countries where the soldiers don't swear to obey the leaders, for 
example, but rather the country's legal system.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   I ordered stamps from Zazzle that read "Place Stamp Here".

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