On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 12:49:14 -0400, Daniel Bastos wrote:

>> By that logic, the money that I pay to buy a box of Fruit Loops goes to
>> the library, because some worker somewhere who benefits from my payment
>> for the cereal might someday go to school there and pay tuition, thus
>> "subsidizing" my access to the materials in the library?  That's
>> tenuous at best.
> 
> I disagree that my paragraph up there is tenuous. I do think your
> example is tenuous. I do agree that, formally, the formal proposition
> that expresses the argument is a contingency; so, indeed, formal logic
> alone will not give us further relevant knowledge.

There's really not a lot of difference between the two - the idea you're 
proposing is that indirect payment (money going to someone from a 
government grant that might go to creating something that might be kept 
in the library) should "count" towards allowing anyone to use the library.

>> Question:  Does Princeton let you go into the library without paying,
>> and just not let you borrow materials?  I know with the Salt Lake City
>> public library, you don't need a library card to enter the library,
>> just to borrow materials.
> 
> I didn't test it, but I don't think they'd see any problems in having
> random people reading books in there.

So then the only issue is that you cannot borrow materials.  That reduces 
the argument really since it's not a question of access.

> Incidentally, I think that they actually see a problem in opposing
> letting random people in. They would have to check everyone's cards upon
> entrance. A real pain in the ass, and surely to upset students. :-)

Agreed.

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On 08/12/09 11:23, Daniel Bastos wrote:
> I'm sorry. Reason for what? To increase Princeton's responsibility? I
> agree. Indeed, there are other factors that are even stronger, but
> less quantitative. Money is measurable, so I think it is okay to look
> there first.

	No - I meant that the mere fact that they get funds from the university 
is not reason enough to get free access to the library. Would you also 
then demand free access to their computer facilities? Chemistry labs?

	I invoked the bailout as an example of banks/companies getting 
government money, but with no (or little) suggestion that you or I 
should have free products.

> I agree. At least.
>
> But I think that one problem here is your ``if.'' It's not clear to me
> what is not support for the library.
>
> For example, if some money goes towards, say, research in mathematical
> topology, some may say that that has nothing to do with the library.
> But to me that is very short sighted because the guy who gets this
> money writes books that go into that library, and he needs that
> library to study, so he reads many books from that library, which were
> put there because they exist, and they exist because they were written
> by people like him, who also got money from the government.

	The link between government grants and the books that academics publish 
is not that strong. Most academics who get grants never publish books, 
to begin with. And many academics (particularly of the mathematics 
variety - they get very few grants) publish even though they have no grants.

	But your analogy is closer to the mark I made elsewhere: That some 
government agencies require that research papers published using their 
grants *must* be freely available to the public.

	In at least the universities I've been at, the money distribution of 
the research grants that professors get is somewhat cleanly defined: 
Some percentage goes to the department, and some percentage goes to the 
college - not sure about the university as a whole. May be different in 
private universities.

-- 
If Wile E. Coyote had enough money to buy all those Acme goods, why 
didn't he just buy dinner?

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On 08/12/09 11:37, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Question:  Does Princeton let you go into the library without paying, and
> just not let you borrow materials?  I know with the Salt Lake City public
> library, you don't need a library card to enter the library, just to
> borrow materials.

	I know one Ivy League university whose library does not even let you 
enter the building unless you have some sort of card...

-- 
If Wile E. Coyote had enough money to buy all those Acme goods, why 
didn't he just buy dinner?

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