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From: Darren New
Subject: Re: US Patent System, now with 20% less stupidity
Date: 15 Jul 2009 11:45:40
Message: <4a5df9a4@news.povray.org>
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John VanSickle wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> John VanSickle wrote:
>>> In any event, work-for-hire agreements would be replaced by
>>> agreements under which the payee got the first option for licensing.
>>
>> Yet someone complained about patents, and that's 100% exactly how
>> patents work, so I'm not sure what the benefit would be.
>
> Under the current rules, the IP belongs to the employer for the life of
> the IP.
What country are you talking about? Patents are owned by the inventor and
licensed to the employer. A corporation is *unable* to patent anything.
> Following the US Constitution would make this arrangement
> unenforceable, because the law could recognize only the creator's
> ownership, and nobody else's.
It already does.
> Granted, the employer could require lifetime licensing as a condition of
> employment,
That's exactly how it works.
> but at least if the employer goes bankrupt, the creator
> would retain the right to his work, instead of the IP going to some
> third party.
Um, no. The license is an asset of the bankrupt company.
I take it you've never patented anything?
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
"We'd like you to back-port all the changes in 2.0
back to version 1.0."
"We've done that already. We call it 2.0."
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From: Patrick Elliott
Subject: Re: US Patent System, now with 20% less stupidity
Date: 15 Jul 2009 20:26:02
Message: <4a5e739a$1@news.povray.org>
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Darren New wrote:
> John VanSickle wrote:
>> Darren New wrote:
>>> John VanSickle wrote:
>>>> In any event, work-for-hire agreements would be replaced by
>>>> agreements under which the payee got the first option for licensing.
>>>
>>> Yet someone complained about patents, and that's 100% exactly how
>>> patents work, so I'm not sure what the benefit would be.
>>
>> Under the current rules, the IP belongs to the employer for the life
>> of the IP.
>
> What country are you talking about? Patents are owned by the inventor
> and licensed to the employer. A corporation is *unable* to patent anything.
>
> > Following the US Constitution would make this arrangement
>> unenforceable, because the law could recognize only the creator's
>> ownership, and nobody else's.
>
> It already does.
>
>> Granted, the employer could require lifetime licensing as a condition
>> of employment,
>
> That's exactly how it works.
>
> > but at least if the employer goes bankrupt, the creator
>> would retain the right to his work, instead of the IP going to some
>> third party.
>
> Um, no. The license is an asset of the bankrupt company.
>
>
> I take it you've never patented anything?
>
He's confusing IP and "patent". IP is more like trademark. A company can
"trademark", or otherwise maintain ownership, indefinitely, under
current law, since it has to be explicitly given to public use to
override this. Originally such "IP" protections only extended for a set
number of years, which where actually less than patents, and one had to
register them as something worth your time to protect. You could
*extend* that protection, if you re-registered it within the allowed
time frame. Probably the 60s-70s, or so, companies, including Disney,
successfully argued that some things like Mickey Mouse, where IP that
where central to their business, and, according to them, it was
unreasonable to require them to re-register such things, to maintain
their ownership and sole right to use them, especially after the
original creator(s) where gone. Morons in the government, looking at
business, rather than the end result of such a change, decided that,
"Yes, this is a good point, so lets extend the rule for the life of the
owner.", then later, "Well, if the owner is a company, lets extend it to
the life of the company.", and then, "Well, if a company fails, then
someone is likely to buy the assets, so lets extend the rights to
include 'whom ever buys the IP'", even if the original creator of it,
the company that they ran, and even the product itself no longer exist,
in any legitimate sense. About 90% of everything "ever" produced by
Hollywood in the early years is either lost, or sitting in some studies
warehouse, rotting into oblivion, because of this change. The arguments
by the companies range from "no one wants to see those old films", to,
"we plan to remake them at some point, maybe", which contradicts the
first contention entirely, and/or, "if it become a public work, we can't
make more money off it, by re-releasing it, even though 200+ films rot
past the point where we could possibly hope to do this at all every
year, and we are re-releasing less than 0.001% of the ones we own,
because, see excuse #1."
Imho, they should revoke this "a company has IP rights, and those rights
are basically perpetual, and transferable.", and go back to having to
***actually*** register the fracking stuff. You can't tell me it would
be impossible for Disney to keep a list of everything they want to keep,
provide reasonable evidence that they are not just letting the
material rot some place, and pass the list on to some agency once ever
10 years, or something, saying, "This is the stuff you want to keep the
IP going on." If they miss something, well then... too frakking bad. If
it was ***so*** important, they wouldn't have missed it, and at least
the public record of its existence is preserved, along with the ability
to derive new works from it.
But, yeah. This issue is parallel too, but an entirely different issue
than patents. Basically, if patent stupidities are the elephant in the
living room, then IP issues are the rhino smashing plates in the kitchen
and trying to trample the stove every time you light a burner to cook
something derived from the few edible left overs in the fridge.
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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From: Darren New
Subject: Re: US Patent System, now with 20% less stupidity
Date: 15 Jul 2009 22:35:18
Message: <4a5e91e6@news.povray.org>
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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> He's confusing IP and "patent". IP is more like trademark.
Um, no. You're confusing "IP" with copyright.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
"We'd like you to back-port all the changes in 2.0
back to version 1.0."
"We've done that already. We call it 2.0."
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From: Patrick Elliott
Subject: Re: US Patent System, now with 20% less stupidity
Date: 17 Jul 2009 15:41:30
Message: <4a60d3ea$1@news.povray.org>
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Darren New wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> He's confusing IP and "patent". IP is more like trademark.
>
> Um, no. You're confusing "IP" with copyright.
>
Oh, give me a break. As used in most cases the two terms are
interchangeable. Yes, you can, reasonably, extend the term to include
both "products" and "patents", but that just means you have to them
break the term up into two separate categories when talking about what
the law says, since the same laws don't apply to both of them. In
general, copyright is covered by near perpetual ownership. Patents.. do
eventually run out, even if they have reached the point where they are
sometimes over extended (or just shouldn't have been issued in the first
place).
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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From: Darren New
Subject: Re: US Patent System, now with 20% less stupidity
Date: 17 Jul 2009 16:15:21
Message: <4a60dbd9$1@news.povray.org>
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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>>> He's confusing IP and "patent". IP is more like trademark.
>>
>> Um, no. You're confusing "IP" with copyright.
>>
> Oh, give me a break. As used in most cases the two terms are
> interchangeable.
Not when you're trying to highlight the differences between copyright,
trademark, and patent law, which are collectively known as "Intellectual
property."
http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aintellectual+property
> Yes, you can, reasonably, extend the term to include
> both "products"
Not products. Trademarks and patents and copyrights.
> general, copyright is covered by near perpetual ownership.
Yes, at least in the USA.
> Patents.. do
> eventually run out, even if they have reached the point where they are
> sometimes over extended (or just shouldn't have been issued in the first
> place).
Yes.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
"We'd like you to back-port all the changes in 2.0
back to version 1.0."
"We've done that already. We call it 2.0."
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From: John VanSickle
Subject: Re: US Patent System, now with 20% less stupidity
Date: 17 Jul 2009 23:02:12
Message: <4a613b34$1@news.povray.org>
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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Imho, they should revoke this "a company has IP rights, and those rights
> are basically perpetual, and transferable.", and go back to having to
> ***actually*** register the fracking stuff.
Part of the registry process should include submission of an archival
copy in good condition; or at least the government could impose the
condition that if the archived copy is deteriorating, then *only* the
deteriorated version is covered by copyright.
Regards,
John
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From: Darren New
Subject: Re: US Patent System, now with 20% less stupidity
Date: 18 Jul 2009 12:40:58
Message: <4a61fb1a@news.povray.org>
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John VanSickle wrote:
> Part of the registry process should include submission of an archival
> copy in good condition;
They used to. That was part of the point of it all. How would you know it's
copied if there wasn't a copy you could compare to?
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
"We'd like you to back-port all the changes in 2.0
back to version 1.0."
"We've done that already. We call it 2.0."
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On 12-7-2009 20:52, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> I think you also need to define more precise what is copyrightable and
>> what not.
>
> That is definitely part of the problem also. (Same with patents.)
>
> The other part is that some things are cultural. Can the design of the
> Eiffel Tower or Washington Monument be copyrighted? If so, can you
> refuse to let tourists take pictures? Etc.
>
> I saw an interesting article about de facto "copyright" on public domain
> artwork. The example was the Sistine chapel, long out of copyright, but
> there's only one, and the Vatican doesn't let you take pictures. Hence,
> altho it's public domain, there are no copies available to the public.
>
>> elaborate scheme? At what point does it become impossible for future
>> owners to repaint it differently without violating my copyright?
>
> I don't think copyright gives you the right to prevent others from
> *destroying* your work. :-)
>
Related: a small article in a newspaper today: A library has a large
number of periodicals and newspapers. Nobody can find what they are
looking for. The interior designer does not give permission to put signs
on his (or her) bookcases.
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