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A. Download an out of print album from Usenet.
B. Record a television program with a dvr and skip the commercials.
C. Cable f's up during a favorite television program - go find a
torrent and download it.
D. Download an album you know you'd never buy out of morbid curiosity
(Chris Cornell with Timbaland)
F. Play a Shoutcast stream at a party.
There are some who believe we MUST put every portion of a cent someone
might be owed into his pocket no matter how many hoops we must go
through to get it there. That is a supportable argument, but there is
another side to it.
Where would the world be if we all individuals demanded everything WE
are owed?
I got rear-ended by a wealthy man just yesterday. He was very apologetic
and offered me not only his insurance and business information (senior
VP at a financial firm most would have heard of), but his personal cell
number as well. However, there is no apparent damage to my $8k car.
Nevertheless, I feel I have a moral and legal right to be a pest about
it: to force him or his insurance company to paint the tiny scratches on
my bumper and send me to the hospital for x-rays.
But I won't be a pest about it. In turn, I'll do what I can to prevent
others from pestering me about dumb shit. Life's too short, and there
has to be SOME limit to what others "owe" me and I "owe" them for every
TINY liberty we take with one another.
-Shay
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My guesses:
On 9-6-2009 22:49, Shay wrote:
> A. Download an out of print album from Usenet.
I think that used to be legal at least for books. Nowadays it is
probably illegal. Morally it is no problem. Even cleaner: try to contact
the artist (not the IP holder if that is a different one) and ask him
how to pay him directly.
> B. Record a television program with a dvr and skip the commercials.
Morally and legaly ok, you can always record what is broadcast for
yourself, don't give or sell to others.
> C. Cable f's up during a favorite television program - go find a
> torrent and download it.
Morally equivalent to B from your point of view. Illegal from the other
guys POV.
> D. Download an album you know you'd never buy out of morbid curiosity
> (Chris Cornell with Timbaland)
I'd say both morally and legally not OK
> F. Play a Shoutcast stream at a party.
illegal, but that might change. The rules as they are now are
increasingly illogical. It may also depend on whether the party is
inside your house for friends only or accessible to anybody.
> There are some who believe we MUST put every portion of a cent someone
> might be owed into his pocket no matter how many hoops we must go
> through to get it there. That is a supportable argument, but there is
> another side to it.
>
> Where would the world be if we all individuals demanded everything WE
> are owed?
>
> I got rear-ended by a wealthy man just yesterday. He was very apologetic
> and offered me not only his insurance and business information (senior
> VP at a financial firm most would have heard of), but his personal cell
> number as well. However, there is no apparent damage to my $8k car.
> Nevertheless, I feel I have a moral and legal right to be a pest about
> it: to force him or his insurance company to paint the tiny scratches on
> my bumper and send me to the hospital for x-rays.
I think I object to that 'moral right' here, but I am not an US-citizen.
Perhaps you should not tell anybody in case they want to force you to
pester him anyway.
>
> But I won't be a pest about it. In turn, I'll do what I can to prevent
> others from pestering me about dumb shit. Life's too short, and there
> has to be SOME limit to what others "owe" me and I "owe" them for every
> TINY liberty we take with one another.
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Shay <n@n.n> wrote:
> B. Record a television program with a dvr and skip the commercials.
Is that piracy? At least Finnish copyright law (which is one of the
strictest in the world, thanks to music companies) explicitly allows
recording TV programs. There's no requirement about commercials.
Of course the irony is: If you record a TV program and lend the recording
to a friend, that's legal. If you send it through the internet to your
friend, you are breaking the law, because now you are publicly distributing
it. The end effect is exactly the same, but in one case it's ok while in
the other you are a criminal.
It has been said that Finnish copyright law is so complicated that nobody
understands it fully, not even the people who made it.
> D. Download an album you know you'd never buy out of morbid curiosity
> (Chris Cornell with Timbaland)
How about: Click on a link, which links to a youtube video containing
copyrighted music. You have no idea if the music is copyrighted or not.
Are you a criminal?
--
- Warp
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On Tue, 09 Jun 2009 23:33:15 +0200, andrel wrote:
> My guesses:
> On 9-6-2009 22:49, Shay wrote:
>> A. Download an out of print album from Usenet.
> I think that used to be legal at least for books. Nowadays it is
> probably illegal. Morally it is no problem. Even cleaner: try to contact
> the artist (not the IP holder if that is a different one) and ask him
> how to pay him directly.
Depends on whether the book is legally out of copyright or not. There is
a very large collection of free books at the Gutenberg project, and all
of them are legally available to be distributed for free.
>> B. Record a television program with a dvr and skip the commercials.
> Morally and legaly ok, you can always record what is broadcast for
> yourself, don't give or sell to others.
Yep, agreed.
>> C. Cable f's up during a favorite television program - go find a
>> torrent and download it.
> Morally equivalent to B from your point of view. Illegal from the other
> guys POV.
I think this is quite a bit muddier. If I paid for a license to view the
content and I could legally record it (say with my DVR), if the DVR
screws up, I see very little difference between recording it on my DVR
and having someone else provide me with a clean copy recorded from their
DVR.
That said, if it's a program I haven't paid for a license to view (for
example, something off HBO, since I don't subscribe to HBO), then it's
much more clear cut.
>> D. Download an album you know you'd never buy out of morbid curiosity
>> (Chris Cornell with Timbaland)
> I'd say both morally and legally not OK
Curiosity is what in-store previews are for (for example, B&N allows you
to listen to snips of tracks from music CDs in the store), or asking a
friend who owns the album to let you have a listen.
>> F. Play a Shoutcast stream at a party.
> illegal, but that might change. The rules as they are now are
> increasingly illogical. It may also depend on whether the party is
> inside your house for friends only or accessible to anybody.
No, I believe this is legal, as long as the shoutcast stream is also
legal. For example, if you run the server in your house, and you legally
own all the tracks, then how you listen to them is up to you.
If it's a shoutcast server run out of Eastern Europe and they're not
licensed to broadcast the songs, then they're in the wrong legally and
you're enabling them, so in the wrong morally.
Jim
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Warp wrote:
> How about: Click on a link, which links to a youtube video containing
> copyrighted music. You have no idea if the music is copyrighted or not.
> Are you a criminal?
You also have no idea if the music is creative-commons-licensed and the
youtube video is thus completely legal. Or if it was uploaded by the band
itself.
Or if it's a rickroll and not what the link label made you think it was :)
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On 9-6-2009 23:42, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Jun 2009 23:33:15 +0200, andrel wrote:
>
>> My guesses:
>> On 9-6-2009 22:49, Shay wrote:
>>> A. Download an out of print album from Usenet.
>> I think that used to be legal at least for books. Nowadays it is
>> probably illegal. Morally it is no problem. Even cleaner: try to contact
>> the artist (not the IP holder if that is a different one) and ask him
>> how to pay him directly.
>
> Depends on whether the book is legally out of copyright or not. There is
> a very large collection of free books at the Gutenberg project, and all
> of them are legally available to be distributed for free.
I think that here it use to be that case that if a book was definitely
out of print you could copy it copyright or not. IANAL
>>> F. Play a Shoutcast stream at a party.
>> illegal, but that might change. The rules as they are now are
>> increasingly illogical. It may also depend on whether the party is
>> inside your house for friends only or accessible to anybody.
>
> No, I believe this is legal, as long as the shoutcast stream is also
> legal. For example, if you run the server in your house, and you legally
> own all the tracks, then how you listen to them is up to you.
I think the idea was playing a shoutcast for a group. That is
broadcasting and even if the shoutcast/radio has paid you are obliged to
pay *again*. We had on apartment buildings large antennae that would
distribute the radio and television to the apartments, in stead of
having an antenna for every apartment. That turned the owner(s) of the
apartment building into a broadcasting organisation that had to pay
copyright. The law may be different in the US (or here in the 21st century)
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andrel wrote:
>> B. Record a television program with a dvr and skip the commercials.
> Morally and legaly ok, you can always record what is broadcast for
> yourself, don't give or sell to others.
>> C. Cable f's up during a favorite television program - go find a
>> torrent and download it.
> Morally equivalent to B from your point of view. Illegal from the other
> guys POV.
This is why C probably best illustrates my point: there may very well be
a legal, moral remedy to my having missed the program. The program may
*eventually* be released on DVD, but waiting for it is, in most people's
minds, too much to ask to satisfy my moral obligations. If someone set
up a pay download service for television programs, then most would
believe me immoral for downloading the program for free. The only
distinction between that possibility and now is that the download
service would make NOT stealing more convenient.
My only point is that there IS a line at which stealing becomes
acceptable. Does it extend to brick and mortar retail? Sure does. Just
today, I picked up a "for sale" pen to write down an item number of some
washers I was purchasing. I didn't purchase the pen and now the guy who
does will have 6 fewer numbers worth of ink to worth with. Wrong?
Whatever you think, I can guarantee that quite a few people will feel
the other way.
Why does any of this matter? Because the tax-funded government shouldn't
go any farther to protect a giant company's property than mine.
Logistics demand reasonableness.
-Shay
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On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 00:22:20 +0200, andrel wrote:
>> No, I believe this is legal, as long as the shoutcast stream is also
>> legal. For example, if you run the server in your house, and you
>> legally own all the tracks, then how you listen to them is up to you.
>
> I think the idea was playing a shoutcast for a group. That is
> broadcasting and even if the shoutcast/radio has paid you are obliged to
> pay *again*. We had on apartment buildings large antennae that would
> distribute the radio and television to the apartments, in stead of
> having an antenna for every apartment. That turned the owner(s) of the
> apartment building into a broadcasting organisation that had to pay
> copyright. The law may be different in the US (or here in the 21st
> century)
I think that is a little different than the proposed arrangement, though
- the proposed arrangement would be no different than tuning in a local
radio station or putting a bunch of CDs in a multi-disc changer to listen
to during the party.
Jim
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On 10-6-2009 0:21, Shay wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>>> B. Record a television program with a dvr and skip the commercials.
>> Morally and legaly ok, you can always record what is broadcast for
>> yourself, don't give or sell to others.
>>> C. Cable f's up during a favorite television program - go find a
>>> torrent and download it.
>> Morally equivalent to B from your point of view. Illegal from the
>> other guys POV.
>
> This is why C probably best illustrates my point: there may very well be
> a legal, moral remedy to my having missed the program. The program may
> *eventually* be released on DVD, but waiting for it is, in most people's
> minds, too much to ask to satisfy my moral obligations. If someone set
> up a pay download service for television programs, then most would
> believe me immoral for downloading the program for free. The only
> distinction between that possibility and now is that the download
> service would make NOT stealing more convenient.
And there is the point that you did pay to see the program. The reasons
this becomes muddy is that law has not yet adopted to current
technology. (Or alternatively that people have been paid to write laws
in such a way that it became muddy)
> My only point is that there IS a line at which stealing becomes
> acceptable. Does it extend to brick and mortar retail? Sure does. Just
> today, I picked up a "for sale" pen to write down an item number of some
> washers I was purchasing. I didn't purchase the pen and now the guy who
> does will have 6 fewer numbers worth of ink to worth with. Wrong?
> Whatever you think, I can guarantee that quite a few people will feel
> the other way.
>
> Why does any of this matter? Because the tax-funded government shouldn't
> go any farther to protect a giant company's property than mine.
Yes, but you are an anonymous tax-payer and that big firm comes knocking
on the door with a lot of 'additional' cash. And their own lawyers to
explain to you why their point of view is better than that of those
anonymous tax-payers.
> Logistics demand reasonableness.
Who will define reasonable?
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On 9-6-2009 22:49, Shay wrote:
> A. Download an out of print album from Usenet.
> B. Record a television program with a dvr and skip the commercials.
> C. Cable f's up during a favorite television program - go find a
> torrent and download it.
> D. Download an album you know you'd never buy out of morbid curiosity
> (Chris Cornell with Timbaland)
> F. Play a Shoutcast stream at a party.
Forgot to add my pet IP dilemma
G. Download an album that I already own in another format.
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