On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:18:48 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>>> On the other hand, somebody taught in a classroom would have a
>>> complete coverage of the subject, not just bits and pieces of it.
>> 
>> This counts for very little in modern programming, really.
> 
> True, but it probably counts of a hell of a lot in mathematics.

Not likely.  I don't think someone like Stephen Hawking learned his 
advanced mathematics skills in a classroom. That happens when you're on 
the bleeding edge of something and discovering new things. ;-)

Jim

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On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:25:10 +0100, Invisible wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
>> I guess part of the point is that knowing C isn't the end-all be-all of
>> programming. :-)
> 
> I've been saying that for years, but nobody believes me... :-P

Um, yeah, many people do.  I used to do a fair amount of programming in C 
and I've never considered it that.

Jim

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>> On the other hand, somebody taught in a classroom would have a complete
>> coverage of the subject, not just bits and pieces of it.
> 
> With advanced topics, it's rare that a classroom experience will give you 
> truly complete coverage of the subject.

No, but it's hard to learn advanced stuff when you don't have a thorough 
understanding of the basics yet.

> You seem to do very well with self-study.  That's not a bad thing, and 
> many employers prefer people who say that they are self-motivated to 
> learn new things.  Often times they'll prefer that over scads of formal 
> education, contrary to what the job posting says the minimum requirements 
> are.

Yeah, well, you can't really put that in a CV or an application.

>> I worry though - on paper, I don't sound very impressive at all. Will I
>> ever get past the initial deselection?
> 
> You don't sound impressive to you because you're you.  Don't guess at 
> what other people are or aren't impressed by, and trust those of us who 
> say that you are impressive.

I sound good to you guys because you know what I'm actually like. On a 
CV or a job application, there isn't much space to communicate stuff, 
and I fear I don't have the magical words that make me look impressive.

>> It's a web form. Any 6 year old with a web browser can submit an
>> application. They must be getting several hundred million *per hour*.
> 
> Doubtful that they're getting that many per hour.

Hell, somebody somewhere probably has a PHP script hitting that form 
trying to see whether the CGI has any buffer overrun vulnerabilities 
which are exploitable. :-P

>> Obviously they will have been prepared for this, and will have an
>> automated system of some kind to filter out the garbage. I just hope
>> they don't filter *me* out!
> 
> Well, we'll see - if they do for some reason, then it's on to the next 
> opportunity.  And the next.

Sure. They do grow on trees, after all...

>>> Give it a couple of days, and if you don't hear anything, write back.
>> Don't have a way to do that.
> 
> Or call them.  I'm sure their office is listed in the phone book or the 
> number is available on the website.  Be creative in finding a way to 
> contact them, especially a company like Wolfram would likely be impressed 
> by the application of some problems solving techniques to ensure that 
> they got the application.
> 
> Hell, it may even be part of why they didn't send an automated 
> response. :-)

Well I can't see any contact details on their website at all. (Not an 
uncommon occurrance, actually.) I suppose I could just drive round 
Oxford until I see a fricking big building with Wolfram written on it...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 09:47:43 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>>> On the other hand, somebody taught in a classroom would have a
>>> complete coverage of the subject, not just bits and pieces of it.
>> 
>> With advanced topics, it's rare that a classroom experience will give
>> you truly complete coverage of the subject.
> 
> No, but it's hard to learn advanced stuff when you don't have a thorough
> understanding of the basics yet.

It's all relative.

>> You seem to do very well with self-study.  That's not a bad thing, and
>> many employers prefer people who say that they are self-motivated to
>> learn new things.  Often times they'll prefer that over scads of formal
>> education, contrary to what the job posting says the minimum
>> requirements are.
> 
> Yeah, well, you can't really put that in a CV or an application.

Sure you can.  How do you think I got my first job doing systems admin 
out of school?  I didn't learn NetWare systems administration in the 
classroom, I am entirely self-taught, and after two years, I co-wrote 
what is still thought by many as the definitive book on troubleshooting 
the directory service for the platform.  That led me to a job where I 
taught people what I'd written about.

All entirely with ZERO formal education on the subject matter.

Out of all the job interviews I did, only one company was distressed by 
my lack of formal education on the subject matter (and consequently they 
were unimpressed with my being a co0author of the ONLY book on the 
subject of troubleshooting the directory service on the platform).  That 
company was Iomega.  And I'm glad that I didn't take that job - after 
seeing the emphasis they put on "formal education" compared to 
"experience", I would've been very unhappy there - probably moreso than 
the company I was trying to leave.

>>> I worry though - on paper, I don't sound very impressive at all. Will
>>> I ever get past the initial deselection?
>> 
>> You don't sound impressive to you because you're you.  Don't guess at
>> what other people are or aren't impressed by, and trust those of us who
>> say that you are impressive.
> 
> I sound good to you guys because you know what I'm actually like. On a
> CV or a job application, there isn't much space to communicate stuff,
> and I fear I don't have the magical words that make me look impressive.

That's why we've helped you.  You still think you sound unimpressive, but 
I can tell you that if I were a hiring manager looking for someone with 
your abilities, I'd hire you on the spot.  I've kept my eyes open 
internally, in fact, for something that would be a good fit, but (a) our 
nearest office to you is in Bracknell (about an hour south of you IIRC) 
and it's not  primarily a development centre.  We have an office in 
Dublin, Ireland as well, but your expressed desire to stay in or near MK 
really limits the opportunities, certainly with my employer.

>>> It's a web form. Any 6 year old with a web browser can submit an
>>> application. They must be getting several hundred million *per hour*.
>> 
>> Doubtful that they're getting that many per hour.
> 
> Hell, somebody somewhere probably has a PHP script hitting that form
> trying to see whether the CGI has any buffer overrun vulnerabilities
> which are exploitable. :-P

Not if their sysadmin is doing their job - which is to say that if 
someone is hitting the form that hard, the server utilization would be up 
- and the first step would be to look at the logs, obtain the IP address, 
and block it.

But on your part that's all supposition - you don't know that, so don't 
assume the worst, either. :-)

>>> Obviously they will have been prepared for this, and will have an
>>> automated system of some kind to filter out the garbage. I just hope
>>> they don't filter *me* out!
>> 
>> Well, we'll see - if they do for some reason, then it's on to the next
>> opportunity.  And the next.
> 
> Sure. They do grow on trees, after all...

If you'd expand the scope of your search, that would certainly help.

>>>> Give it a couple of days, and if you don't hear anything, write back.
>>> Don't have a way to do that.
>> 
>> Or call them.  I'm sure their office is listed in the phone book or the
>> number is available on the website.  Be creative in finding a way to
>> contact them, especially a company like Wolfram would likely be
>> impressed by the application of some problems solving techniques to
>> ensure that they got the application.
>> 
>> Hell, it may even be part of why they didn't send an automated
>> response. :-)
> 
> Well I can't see any contact details on their website at all. (Not an
> uncommon occurrance, actually.) I suppose I could just drive round
> Oxford until I see a fricking big building with Wolfram written on it...

Try Google.  Search for "Wolfram Oxford Location" (without the quotes).  
I did, first result gave a location AND a phone number.

As good as you are at research (and you are good at it), it's sometimes 
shocking you miss the easy route.

Further, if you go to the wolfram.com website and drill into the company 
pages, there's an application page (different than the one you filled 
out, more specific to Mathematica it seems) and there's a contact e-mail 
address listed at the bottom of the page:  resumes (at) wolfram (dot) com.

Jim

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> Sure you can.  How do you think I got my first job doing systems admin 
> out of school?  I didn't learn NetWare systems administration in the 
> classroom, I am entirely self-taught, and after two years, I co-wrote 
> what is still thought by many as the definitive book on troubleshooting 
> the directory service for the platform.  That led me to a job where I 
> taught people what I'd written about.

I'm puzzled as to how somebody with no formal qualifications gets to 
write a book.

>> I sound good to you guys because you know what I'm actually like. On a
>> CV or a job application, there isn't much space to communicate stuff,
>> and I fear I don't have the magical words that make me look impressive.
> 
> That's why we've helped you.  You still think you sound unimpressive, but 
> I can tell you that if I were a hiring manager looking for someone with 
> your abilities, I'd hire you on the spot.

Based on what you know about me from this forum? Or based on the 300 
word description in a text box on a web application form?

If there's a box asking what qualifications you have, and another box 
asking what commercial experience you have, it's very hard to convey 
that you're not just some loser kid who wants a job, and that you 
actually know stuff about stuff, even though you don't have the 
credentials "on paper" to prove it.

> I've kept my eyes open 
> internally, in fact, for something that would be a good fit, but (a) our 
> nearest office to you is in Bracknell (about an hour south of you IIRC) 
> and it's not  primarily a development centre.  We have an office in 
> Dublin, Ireland as well, but your expressed desire to stay in or near MK 
> really limits the opportunities, certainly with my employer.

Yeah, that's the wonders of the Internet - most people you talk to live 
nowhere near wherever you are. ;-)

>>> Well, we'll see - if they do for some reason, then it's on to the next
>>> opportunity.  And the next.
>> Sure. They do grow on trees, after all...
> 
> If you'd expand the scope of your search, that would certainly help.

Such as...?

>> Well I can't see any contact details on their website at all. (Not an
>> uncommon occurrance, actually.) I suppose I could just drive round
>> Oxford until I see a fricking big building with Wolfram written on it...
> 
> Try Google.  Search for "Wolfram Oxford Location" (without the quotes).  
> I did, first result gave a location AND a phone number.
> 
> As good as you are at research (and you are good at it), it's sometimes 
> shocking you miss the easy route.
> 
> Further, if you go to the wolfram.com website and drill into the company 
> pages, there's an application page (different than the one you filled 
> out, more specific to Mathematica it seems) and there's a contact e-mail 
> address listed at the bottom of the page:  resumes (at) wolfram (dot) com.

You're looking at Wolfram Research Inc. I applied to Wolfram Alpha LLC. 
Different company. ;-)

IIRC, Wolfram Research does have a little more contact info readily 
available.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Yeah, well, you can't really put that in a CV or an application.

Sure. It goes under the "skills" section. "Self-motivated" or "self-started" 
is usually how it's described in the help-wanted ad.

> and I fear I don't have the magical words that make me look impressive.

So ask. :-)

> Well I can't see any contact details on their website at all. 

Call directory service. Look up scholarly papers until you get a name or an 
email address of someone working there.


-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Insanity is a small city on the western
   border of the State of Mind.

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On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 18:26:35 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>> Sure you can.  How do you think I got my first job doing systems admin
>> out of school?  I didn't learn NetWare systems administration in the
>> classroom, I am entirely self-taught, and after two years, I co-wrote
>> what is still thought by many as the definitive book on troubleshooting
>> the directory service for the platform.  That led me to a job where I
>> taught people what I'd written about.
> 
> I'm puzzled as to how somebody with no formal qualifications gets to
> write a book.

Well, I said "co-author".  My co-author asked me if I was interested 
because he was impressed with my level of knowledge.  We've done 3 books 
together (though the last one I didn't contribute directly to due to a 
conflict of interest with work projects - he used material I'd written in 
the previous edition so I had to be credited).

>>> I sound good to you guys because you know what I'm actually like. On a
>>> CV or a job application, there isn't much space to communicate stuff,
>>> and I fear I don't have the magical words that make me look
>>> impressive.
>> 
>> That's why we've helped you.  You still think you sound unimpressive,
>> but I can tell you that if I were a hiring manager looking for someone
>> with your abilities, I'd hire you on the spot.
> 
> Based on what you know about me from this forum? Or based on the 300
> word description in a text box on a web application form?
> 
> If there's a box asking what qualifications you have, and another box
> asking what commercial experience you have, it's very hard to convey
> that you're not just some loser kid who wants a job, and that you
> actually know stuff about stuff, even though you don't have the
> credentials "on paper" to prove it.

The 300 word application box is a foot in the door.  It's not the entire 
interview process.  They learn the details after the first step is done.

>> I've kept my eyes open
>> internally, in fact, for something that would be a good fit, but (a)
>> our nearest office to you is in Bracknell (about an hour south of you
>> IIRC) and it's not  primarily a development centre.  We have an office
>> in Dublin, Ireland as well, but your expressed desire to stay in or
>> near MK really limits the opportunities, certainly with my employer.
> 
> Yeah, that's the wonders of the Internet - most people you talk to live
> nowhere near wherever you are. ;-)

Yep.

>>>> Well, we'll see - if they do for some reason, then it's on to the
>>>> next opportunity.  And the next.
>>> Sure. They do grow on trees, after all...
>> 
>> If you'd expand the scope of your search, that would certainly help.
> 
> Such as...?

Broader scope of locations for a start.  If I limited myself to 
businesses within a 4 block radius (not saying you are that restricted in 
your scope, but I live in a larger city), I'd probably have a hard time 
finding something, too.

>>> Well I can't see any contact details on their website at all. (Not an
>>> uncommon occurrance, actually.) I suppose I could just drive round
>>> Oxford until I see a fricking big building with Wolfram written on
>>> it...
>> 
>> Try Google.  Search for "Wolfram Oxford Location" (without the quotes).
>> I did, first result gave a location AND a phone number.
>> 
>> As good as you are at research (and you are good at it), it's sometimes
>> shocking you miss the easy route.
>> 
>> Further, if you go to the wolfram.com website and drill into the
>> company pages, there's an application page (different than the one you
>> filled out, more specific to Mathematica it seems) and there's a
>> contact e-mail address listed at the bottom of the page:  resumes (at)
>> wolfram (dot) com.
> 
> You're looking at Wolfram Research Inc. I applied to Wolfram Alpha LLC.
> Different company. ;-)

Same company, different department/division.  There's a high probability 
they're in the same building, and if they're not, there's also a high 
probability that the person you talk to at reception at the number on the 
site I found (or via the e-mail address I found) can point you in the 
right direction.

> IIRC, Wolfram Research does have a little more contact info readily
> available.

Yes, and that's a starting point.  Call the number and say you'd like to 
speak to someone about your submitted application on the Wolfram|Alpha 
site, and if that person is in that office location, they'll connect 
you.  If they're not, then ask if they have a phone number that you can 
call for the other office because you'd like to follow up on your 
application.

That shows initiative (and follow-through), and employers like that.

Jim

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On 06/13/09 12:26, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> I'm puzzled as to how somebody with no formal qualifications gets to
> write a book.

1. Open editor.
2. Start typing.
3. Convince publisher.

	Step 3 is what I don't know anything about, given that I haven't 
published anything. However, if no one else has written a book on it, 
and the publisher knows there's a market, why wouldn't they publish it?

> You're looking at Wolfram Research Inc. I applied to Wolfram Alpha LLC.
> Different company. ;-)
>
> IIRC, Wolfram Research does have a little more contact info readily
> available.

	Pretty much the same company.


-- 
Psychoceramics: The study of crackpots.


                     /\  /\               /\  /
                    /  \/  \ u e e n     /  \/  a w a z
                        >>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
                                    anl

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On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 14:59:03 -0500, Mueen Nawaz wrote:

> 	Step 3 is what I don't know anything about, given that I haven't
> published anything. However, if no one else has written a book on it,
> and the publisher knows there's a market, why wouldn't they publish it?

Well, there's a few reasons they wouldn't - they may not understand that 
the subject hasn't been covered before (first book we had that problem - 
tried to publish through the software developer's imprint at Sybex, and 
the acquisitions editor said "why do we need a book on that?  We already 
have one." - problem was, the one we wrote was troubleshooting, the one 
they had was design.  Two different subjects).

We shopped it around to one other publisher, and they picked it up, no 
problem.

But I've also seen books where the author didn't know what they were 
talking about and the publisher picked it up.  There was one notorious 
one that Peter (my co-author) dubbed "the book from Hell" because the 
publisher asked him to do the technical review and he basically ripped it 
apart.  It was *awful*.  So the publisher said "fine, if you think you 
can do better, go ahead."  So he ended up rewriting it and getting author 
credit on that one as well (along with 4 or 5 other people I know; I'd 
have to look, but I don't think I wrote anything but did some technical 
review myself on it).

Jim

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>> I'm puzzled as to how somebody with no formal qualifications gets to
>> write a book.
> 
> Well, I said "co-author".  My co-author asked me if I was interested 
> because he was impressed with my level of knowledge.

Ah. So it's a question of knowing the right people then.

>> If there's a box asking what qualifications you have, and another box
>> asking what commercial experience you have, it's very hard to convey
>> that you're not just some loser kid who wants a job, and that you
>> actually know stuff about stuff, even though you don't have the
>> credentials "on paper" to prove it.
> 
> The 300 word application box is a foot in the door.  It's not the entire 
> interview process.  They learn the details after the first step is done.

Not if you're unsufficiently impressive to get an interview.

>>> If you'd expand the scope of your search, that would certainly help.
>> Such as...?
> 
> Broader scope of locations for a start.  If I limited myself to 
> businesses within a 4 block radius (not saying you are that restricted in 
> your scope, but I live in a larger city), I'd probably have a hard time 
> finding something, too.

Well, I'm currently looking at Wolfram in Oxford. That's about 30 miles 
or something. I'd prefer a job in my home town, but I don't mind 
something slightly further away.

I don't care how much you pay me, I am NOT working in London.

>> You're looking at Wolfram Research Inc. I applied to Wolfram Alpha LLC.
>> Different company. ;-)
> 
> Same company, different department/division.  There's a high probability 
> they're in the same building, and if they're not, there's also a high 
> probability that the person you talk to at reception at the number on the 
> site I found (or via the e-mail address I found) can point you in the 
> right direction.
> 
>> IIRC, Wolfram Research does have a little more contact info readily
>> available.
> 
> Yes, and that's a starting point.  Call the number and say you'd like to 
> speak to someone about your submitted application on the Wolfram|Alpha 
> site, and if that person is in that office location, they'll connect 
> you.  If they're not, then ask if they have a phone number that you can 
> call for the other office because you'd like to follow up on your 
> application.
> 
> That shows initiative (and follow-through), and employers like that.

All true in theory. In practice, applying to such a vast company, I 
doubt anybody is going to notice. I also rather suspect most of their HR 
will be in the USA. But it's worth a go I guess...

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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