scott wrote:
>> Now that sounds more like the kind of thing I want to be doing.
> 
> It has its disadvantages too, because everyone you work with is doing 
> pretty similar jobs, you cannot get away with doing things wrong or 
> trying to fob off people about how long things will take.

Or mumble something about "the new 8.1 hyperdrive" and expect them to 
just go "oh, OK". ;-)

> This is in contrast to your current job I suspect, where most of the 
> people you work with don't know exactly what you do and how long it 
> takes you.

Generally they just assume everything will take 20 seconds. (And get 
upset if it doesn't.)

> WARNING if you get a new job you may not have time to post here :-(

Oh noes. :-P

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Mon, 04 May 2009 13:14:32 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

> Heh. I can just see me sitting on the pub reading Godel, Escher, Bach.
> ;-)
> 
> [Which I haven't opened yet, BTW.]

Hey, it's a start. :-)

>>>> How many times did you contact them?
>>> Only once. They're not deaf.
>> 
>> They may not be deaf, but suppose that a less qualified individual
>> contacted them 5 times or 10 times and got YOUR job because they showed
>> more interest than you?  You have to be persistent or they're not going
>> to think your serious about wanting the job.
> 
> ...or maybe because to do an internship you have to already be doing a
> PhD? (And I'm not.)

Do you know that for a fact or are you guessing?

>> They are just as likely to assume "if I hear from this kid once and he
>> expresses no more interest, he must've gotten a much better job
>> somewhere else, so why bother contacting him when I've got this other
>> candidate, maybe less qualified, but clearly wants this job - we'll go
>> with him instead because he's made our job easier."
> 
> Hey, it was hard enough sending the first email, without putting myself
> through all that again for no benefit.

Potential benefit:  They write back to you and say "sorry, we meant to 
write back to you and we got busy" or "did you not see our earlier 
reply?  We assumed after not hearing back from you that you weren't 
interested."  Yeah, they might've replied and screwed up their reply and 
it went to a bitbucket somewhere instead of getting to you.

First rule:  Don't assume they intentionally ignored you.  Assume they 
made a mistake and meant to get back to you.

>> Getting out on your own would probably be very good for you.
> 
> Heh. Unless you believe me mum, who's been doing a sterling job of
> conditioning be to believe that I "couldn't cope" by myself. (Gee,
> wonder why that might be...)

Well, based on that statement, it sounds like she's afraid to be living 
alone to me.  So she is trying to make you believe you couldn't handle it 
on your own in order to cover up her own insecurity.  Or something like 
that.

> Sure. There are hardly any adverts for programmers out there. 

That you can find.  What you can find is not a representative sample of 
what's available if you're not looking in the right places.

> I can
> *totally* control that. When I apply to people, they ignore me or
> summarily reject me. That's in my control too.

Assumptions.  You can control what you assume.  So don't assume they're 
intentionally ignoring you or rejecting you just because you haven't 
heard anything back.

>>> Sure. So you start at the bottom and work up. There's absolutely no
>>> point in applying to hyper-senior positions when your CV doesn't back
>>> it up.
>> 
>> Yes and no - there can be a point because you might find something
>> unadvertised that's open, or they may find that you meet a need they
>> didn't know they had.
> 
> Or, more realistically, your application will summarily be removed
> during the paper sift before they even get as far as interviewing
> anybody.

Going through the side entrance is the way to get noticed, in my 
experience.  I have gotten jobs that "required" certifications and 
college degrees by working around the system rather than through it.  
Unconventional approaches work and are far better than being one of a 
thousand or even a hundred people going through the "normal" process.

>>>> Do you think the scientists you work with just woke up one morning
>>>> with the experience and knowledge that got them the jobs they work
>>>> in?
>>> No - they started at the bottom and worked up. That's what I need to
>>> do.
>> 
>> Yes.  But they have to start somewhere, and so do you.  And you have by
>> taking a sysadmin job.
> 
> System administration is entirely unrelated to my target area.

You want to get into programming?  You're wrong, it's totally related.  
You write programs to accomplish sysadmin tasks, yes?  They may not be OS-
sized software engineering projects, but I know plenty of programmers 
(remember where I work - I have spent time working with people who do 
software engineering) who have made the move from sysadmin work to 
software engineering.  It doesn't happen overnight, but don't discount 
the experience of administering systems and writing 3-line scripts as 
being "unrelated".  It's not.

>> Maybe it's time to search again.  Available jobs isn't a static list.
>> :-)
> 
> No, but the number and type of jobs on offer is.

That's where you're WRONG!  The number and type of jobs on offer changes 
as positions are filled and opened.

>> By your premise, anyone who works in a customer-facing position should
>> never have a good year because all customers are unreasonable.
> 
> Are you telling me this *isn't* the case?

Well, let's see.  I work in a customer-facing position.  I talk to 
customers every single day.  I deal with complaints (in fact, I'm the one 
my team sends the problem customers *to* because I get results).  I have 
good years.

So yes, I'm telling you that being customer facing is not a guarantee of 
having a bad year, because I live in such a role.

My secret?  I've been a customer (indeed we all have).  So I put myself 
in the customer's shoes and ask myself what it is that I would want in 
that situation (I consider myself a pretty reasonable person).  Then I 
see if it's something I could do.  If it is, then I offer it, and usually 
that makes the customer happy.

And if I make that offer and they're not happy with it, I know that *I*, 
as a reasonable human being, would be happy with it, so then it's not my 
problem, it's theirs.  And I don't let the bad attitude of someone who is 
being unreasonable ruin my day.  (And yes, that takes practice).

>>> Dealing with people (especially nontechnical people) is one of the
>>> things about my current job that I hate the most. They have no clue
>>> what they're talking about, no idea what they actually want, but they
>>> want it 20 seconds ago, and if they don't get it, well that's just not
>>> good enough and I don't give a damn how difficult it is for you. I
>>> *own* you and you will do as you're told, bitch!
>> 
>> You deal with some pretty crappy people, then.
> 
> Yes. They're called "people". (And some folk wonder why I often try to
> avoid people...)

Your implication is that all people are crappy.  They're not.  You just 
have had to deal with people who recognise that you are someone they can 
take advantage of and treat badly because you'll just stand there and 
take it.

That's why it's important to stand up for yourself, but we'll get to that 
in a minute.

>> They take advantage of
>> the fact that you won't stand up for yourself, and they depend on that.
>> Don't let them get away with it.
> 
> I couldn't stand up for myself if my life depended on it (which,
> arguably, it does).

You can, though.  You just haven't practiced it, and it does take 
practice.

You want people to respect you, yes?

One way to get people to respect you is to stand up for yourself when 
people are berating you for doing your job.

About 15 years ago or so, I was a part of a team who did online support 
on CompuServe.  As an incentive to continue helping, we got to go on 
trips paid for by the sponsoring company.

One year, the trip was a cruise to the Bahamas.  I think that was my 
first trip.

A group of three of the guys in the group were the college-type 
fraternity boys who stayed out and partied all night.  They liked picking 
on me, because I was naive and they thought my reactions were funny.

One afternoon on the ship, they decided it was time for a little fun.  I 
was sitting at the bar with a friend of mine from the group just chatting 
and having a good time, and the three of them walked up and said 
something to me.  To this day, nobody remembers what exactly was said.

But what they said pissed me off, and I told them so.  Caught them 
*completely* by surprise.

You know what?  That's the last time they bothered me.  They decided I 
was worthy of respect.  I still talk to one of them regularly; the other 
two dropped out of the program and out of my life.

I now look back at that as a major turning point in my life (odd that, 
because nobody does remember what was said or exactly what transpired) - 
the moment when I spoke out and the world didn't end or come crashing in 
on me.

> This is why I want to avoid situations where I'm going to be bullied in
> the first place.

Nobody seeks out situations like that.  But they do happen and it's best 
to learn how to deal with them so when they do happen, you can walk away 
from it with your head held high.  Yeah, it's a bit cliche, but it is 
true.

>>> At least dealing with technical people, they know what they want you
>>> to do, and they know when you've done it.
>> 
>> That's not a guarantee.
> 
> True, but you stand a somewhat better chance.

Depends on the people, really.  All people have the ability to be total 
shits to others.  Some people who don't have technical skills end up in 
those jobs as well (it's rare, but it happens), so it's best to prepare 
for it.

>> If you start at $1000, you're likely to end up closer to their opening
>> offer of $2000.
>> 
>> Does that make sense?
> 
> Yeah, sure. But I still don't get the whole "there are no jobs available
> right now, but that doesn't mean you can't get a job". Um, no, that's
> *exactly* what it means. I'm confused...

But we've been over this, there are jobs available, you're just not 
finding them.  That's different than "there are no jobs available".

>>>> When did you last actively look?
>>> If I remember rightly, sometime in the middle of April was the last
>>> time I contacted anyone about a serious job opportunity.
>> 
>> So it's been a couple of weeks.  When's the last time you followed up
>> with them?  Follow-up is important.
> 
> The specific job in question turned out to be unsuitable, so I let it
> go.
> 
> But you're right. I need to find some time to do another search. It's
> just hard to face something that's going to take hours and not produce
> results.

Look at it this way:  It may produce results, and if it produces a 
positive result, then you can start planning to move on from where you 
are.  That's a positive thing, yes?

>>> How do you find the non-WTF jobs though?! :-S
>> 
>> By wading through the ones that are.  You have to interview them when
>> they interview you.  The interview is not the one-way process that most
>> people seem to think it is.  It's a chance for them to get you, but
>> also a chance for you to get to know them and see if it's a good fit
>> for you.
> 
> So far during my job search, I've been to exactly 1 interview. As you
> may recall, the interviewer appeared to be attempting to invent a
> position to hire me for. In the end, however, I didn't get hired. I'm
> actually kinda glad; didn't look like a great place to work. The staff
> seemed a little... immature? (Kinda like the stereotypical bank
> executives on that ad on TV.)

From what you described, it sounded like a very relaxed atmosphere - and 
that means lower stress.  If the company has a good business plan or has 
been around for a while, why not?  You spend at least 8 hours a day in 
the office, so why not someplace where people don't take things too 
seriously and where you're not under constant stress?

Here again, if you look for a job and expect to find something that's 
just the way the place is that you're in now, then there's a good chance 
you will be unhappy at the new job as well - you need a change in 
environment.

>>> They send to email this address. I emailled the address. Nothing ever
>>> happened. The end.
>> 
>> E-mail again, and ask if your previous message got to them.  Maybe it
>> got caught in a spam folder for some reason.  Maybe they got it and
>> accidentally marked it read but meant to follow up on it with you.
>> There's a lot of reasonable reasons why they may have not followed up
>> with you besides "they hate my guts and wish I would go away".
> 
> And if it got filtered the first time, why won't it get filtered the
> second time? Besides, it was weeks ago now. It's kinda too late.

It's never too late to follow up.  Well, maybe 6 months to a year might 
be.  It may have been filtered for many different reasons - if you don't 
try again, you'll never know, right?  If you do try again, then there's a 
chance you'll find out, and there's a chance you'll get a "whoops, we 
thought you weren't interested because you didn't reply to our inquiry 
which apparently got lost on the way to you".

There are lots of legitimate reasons why a positive reply might not have 
gotten back to you or why someone on their end dropped the ball and 
didn't get back to you when they meant to.

>> Maybe there's other places where classified ads are posted that you're
>> not looking.
> 
> As I say, jobs must exist _somewhere_. I'm just not finding them.

Right, and that is different from "there are no jobs".  Just keep 
reminding yourself of that.

>>> I've done this many, many times now, and it never actually gets any
>>> easier. Sure, you know the person at the other end can't actually find
>>> out where you live, hunt you down and kill you. But they can shout at
>>> you, which is almost as bad...
>> 
>> Trust me, it isn't.  You can always hang up on them if they start
>> shouting at you.
> 
> Sure. But I'm still going to feel terribly for the rest of the month.

If someone treats you badly, their opinion isn't important.  We all have 
to remind ourselves of that from time to time - even in recent history, 
if I started counting the number of sleepless nights I've had because 
some shit said something mean to me, I'd lose count.

> It's still going to keep me awake at night. And, in all likelihood, I'm
> still going to have to call them back at some point. [Depending on why
> the call in the first place, obviously.]

And when you do, start off with "now are we going to be able to discuss 
this like rational, reasonable adults, or are you going to fly off the 
handle again?"  And if they do, hang up on them again and report the 
problem to their boss, and yours.  And to HR.

There's no excuse in a professional environment to treat people poorly, 
and in most locales there are laws about exactly that.  You do not have 
to just *take* abuse.  As I recall, employment law in the UK tends to 
favour the employees, so use that to your advantage.  Make a stink about 
it when someone treats you badly - but do so without treating them badly 
in return.  Remain professional and factual.

>>>> Hey, you gained
>>>> the confidence to contact a total stranger the other day, and like I
>>>> said earlier, that's progress.
>>> That was more an act of extreme desperation than anything else, but
>>> sure.
>> 
>> Think of it as gained confidence.
> 
> It turns out there's a fine line between confidence and stupidity.

Maybe you're not trying to be funny, but that is funny. ;-)  The usual 
way that is said is "bravery and stupidity".  But ultimately, so what?  
Again, you had the guts to do something I've never done and even today 
never would do (OK, part of that is because I'm happily married <g>).

>>> If I'm really such a great person, why doesn't anybody else think so?
>> 
>> Um, you're talking to someone who does think so.  Several others here
>> have said so.  But you seem to insist that we must be wrong. ;-)
>> 
>> Don't forget that there are actual human beings on the other end of the
>> words you're reading on the screen right now.
> 
> Well, nice to know somebody alive actually likes me...

I think you'll find that I'm not the only one.

Jim

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>> Heh. I can just see me sitting on the pub reading Godel, Escher, Bach.
>> ;-)
>>
>> [Which I haven't opened yet, BTW.]
> 
> Hey, it's a start. :-)

Why don't I just paint a sign on my head saying "hey, I'm a subhuman, 
it's OK to come over here and beat me to a pulp"? :-P

>> ...or maybe because to do an internship you have to already be doing a
>> PhD? (And I'm not.)
> 
> Do you know that for a fact or are you guessing?

It's a guess. I know MSRC has this requirement, I don't know about the 
place I applied. (The ad didn't mention it.)

> First rule:  Don't assume they intentionally ignored you.  Assume they 
> made a mistake and meant to get back to you.

Well, I didn't know what to say with the *first* email, so what do I say 
with the second? "Hey, I know I'm so awesom that you must have just 
forgetten to reply to me"?

>>> Getting out on your own would probably be very good for you.
>> Heh. Unless you believe me mum, who's been doing a sterling job of
>> conditioning be to believe that I "couldn't cope" by myself. (Gee,
>> wonder why that might be...)
> 
> Well, based on that statement, it sounds like she's afraid to be living 
> alone to me.  So she is trying to make you believe you couldn't handle it 
> on your own in order to cover up her own insecurity.  Or something like 
> that.

More like she wants to keep her slave handy. :-P

>> I can
>> *totally* control that. When I apply to people, they ignore me or
>> summarily reject me. That's in my control too.
> 
> Assumptions.  You can control what you assume.  So don't assume they're 
> intentionally ignoring you or rejecting you just because you haven't 
> heard anything back.

When somebody writes back and says "we don't want you", I take that as 
being a rejection, yes.

> Going through the side entrance is the way to get noticed, in my 
> experience.  I have gotten jobs that "required" certifications and 
> college degrees by working around the system rather than through it.  
> Unconventional approaches work and are far better than being one of a 
> thousand or even a hundred people going through the "normal" process.

You're probably right about that. Unfortunately, I'm not real sure how 
to do that. (Presumably neither is anybody else - which is why the few 
who do get noticed.)

>>> Yes.  But they have to start somewhere, and so do you.  And you have by
>>> taking a sysadmin job.
>> System administration is entirely unrelated to my target area.
> 
> You want to get into programming?  You're wrong, it's totally related.  
> You write programs to accomplish sysadmin tasks, yes?  They may not be OS-
> sized software engineering projects, but I know plenty of programmers 
> (remember where I work - I have spent time working with people who do 
> software engineering) who have made the move from sysadmin work to 
> software engineering.  It doesn't happen overnight, but don't discount 
> the experience of administering systems and writing 3-line scripts as 
> being "unrelated".  It's not.

I invent tasks that can be solved by programming, yes. I don't *need* to 
code anything. It's just a way of doing something fun while pretending 
to look busy.

>>> Maybe it's time to search again.  Available jobs isn't a static list.
>>> :-)
>> No, but the number and type of jobs on offer is.
> 
> That's where you're WRONG!  The number and type of jobs on offer changes 
> as positions are filled and opened.

Well, I think you'll find the number of vacancies for (say) accountants 
vastly outnumbers positions for computer programmers. I doubt it varies 
significantly year upon year.

>>> By your premise, anyone who works in a customer-facing position should
>>> never have a good year because all customers are unreasonable.
>> Are you telling me this *isn't* the case?

> So yes, I'm telling you that being customer facing is not a guarantee of 
> having a bad year, because I live in such a role.

Interesting. I wouldn't have believed it possible.

OTOH, maybe you're just a different sort of person to me? For me, 
talking to strangers is almost unberably stressful - even if it's their 
job to *not* upset me! o_O

> One afternoon on the ship, they decided it was time for a little fun.  I 
> was sitting at the bar with a friend of mine from the group just chatting 
> and having a good time, and the three of them walked up and said 
> something to me.  To this day, nobody remembers what exactly was said.
> 
> But what they said pissed me off, and I told them so.  Caught them 
> *completely* by surprise.
> 
> You know what?  That's the last time they bothered me.  They decided I 
> was worthy of respect.  I still talk to one of them regularly; the other 
> two dropped out of the program and out of my life.
> 
> I now look back at that as a major turning point in my life (odd that, 
> because nobody does remember what was said or exactly what transpired) - 
> the moment when I spoke out and the world didn't end or come crashing in 
> on me.

Unfortunately, if I had done that, the three of them would have grabbed 
me and beaten me senseless.

Sure, they'd probably be punished for it. But that's not going to help 
me when I wake up in hospital, is it? (Assuming I wake up...)

>> So far during my job search, I've been to exactly 1 interview. As you
>> may recall, the interviewer appeared to be attempting to invent a
>> position to hire me for. In the end, however, I didn't get hired. I'm
>> actually kinda glad; didn't look like a great place to work. The staff
>> seemed a little... immature? (Kinda like the stereotypical bank
>> executives on that ad on TV.)
> 
> From what you described, it sounded like a very relaxed atmosphere - and 
> that means lower stress.  If the company has a good business plan or has 
> been around for a while, why not?  You spend at least 8 hours a day in 
> the office, so why not someplace where people don't take things too 
> seriously and where you're not under constant stress?

There's "relaxed" and there's "we're a bunch of juvanile twats". Now I 
could be wrong about this, but I'm saying when I was there the vibe 
didn't feel very good, that's all.

>>> Think of it as gained confidence.
>> It turns out there's a fine line between confidence and stupidity.
> 
> Maybe you're not trying to be funny, but that is funny. ;-)  The usual 
> way that is said is "bravery and stupidity".  But ultimately, so what?  
> Again, you had the guts to do something I've never done and even today 
> never would do (OK, part of that is because I'm happily married <g>).

Heh. Even Marcus, the womanizing wonder said he'd never do that.

...so yeah, more stupid than brave. :-/

>> Well, nice to know somebody alive actually likes me...
> 
> I think you'll find that I'm not the only one.

An alternative hypothesis might be that the few other people who like me 
are just kinda quiet about it.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On Mon, 04 May 2009 19:46:48 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>>> Heh. I can just see me sitting on the pub reading Godel, Escher, Bach.
>>> ;-)
>>>
>>> [Which I haven't opened yet, BTW.]
>> 
>> Hey, it's a start. :-)
> 
> Why don't I just paint a sign on my head saying "hey, I'm a subhuman,
> it's OK to come over here and beat me to a pulp"? :-P

Because in most locales (a) beating someone to a pulp is illegal (it's 
called "assault" and can land the perp in jail), and (b) you may well 
find that other people are in fact interested in these topics.

>>> ...or maybe because to do an internship you have to already be doing a
>>> PhD? (And I'm not.)
>> 
>> Do you know that for a fact or are you guessing?
> 
> It's a guess. I know MSRC has this requirement, I don't know about the
> place I applied. (The ad didn't mention it.)

Don't guess, don't assume.  Find out the facts. :-)

>> First rule:  Don't assume they intentionally ignored you.  Assume they
>> made a mistake and meant to get back to you.
> 
> Well, I didn't know what to say with the *first* email, so what do I say
> with the second? "Hey, I know I'm so awesom that you must have just
> forgetten to reply to me"?

Just a quick "Hi, I am just following up to my first inquiry about your 
open position - is the position still available?  I am interested and 
would like more information."  Reference the position as well.

Keep it short and to the point.

>>>> Getting out on your own would probably be very good for you.
>>> Heh. Unless you believe me mum, who's been doing a sterling job of
>>> conditioning be to believe that I "couldn't cope" by myself. (Gee,
>>> wonder why that might be...)
>> 
>> Well, based on that statement, it sounds like she's afraid to be living
>> alone to me.  So she is trying to make you believe you couldn't handle
>> it on your own in order to cover up her own insecurity.  Or something
>> like that.
> 
> More like she wants to keep her slave handy. :-P

Not much of a difference, really.  I don't know your mum, but I know my 
mum has been going through a very difficult time since my dad passed 
away.  She laments when I talk to her on the phone that her boys aren't 
closer to home (I'm in Utah, my younger brother's in Japan).  She says 
she's not asking for anyone to come home, but she feels lonely because 
there's not a lot of family nearby.

Fear of being alone isn't uncommon.  Your mom's gotta be what, in her 40s 
or 50s?

>>> I can
>>> *totally* control that. When I apply to people, they ignore me or
>>> summarily reject me. That's in my control too.
>> 
>> Assumptions.  You can control what you assume.  So don't assume they're
>> intentionally ignoring you or rejecting you just because you haven't
>> heard anything back.
> 
> When somebody writes back and says "we don't want you", I take that as
> being a rejection, yes.

And when they do, it's their loss.  Bin it and move on.  I'm not saying 
it's easy to do so; I'm saying it's *necessary* to do so.

>> Going through the side entrance is the way to get noticed, in my
>> experience.  I have gotten jobs that "required" certifications and
>> college degrees by working around the system rather than through it.
>> Unconventional approaches work and are far better than being one of a
>> thousand or even a hundred people going through the "normal" process.
> 
> You're probably right about that. Unfortunately, I'm not real sure how
> to do that. (Presumably neither is anybody else - which is why the few
> who do get noticed.)

Well, I've given you a couple of ideas already.  Not all jobs are hidden 
from view, so find one that isn't where you know the company and inquire 
about it.  Find a company that you think you might like to work for and 
walk in and ask the receptionist if there are any open positions for 
someone with your skills, or if you can speak to someone in the HR 
department.

Go on interviews where you are certain you're unqualified but where the 
position is one you're interested in and would like to maybe do in 5 
years when you are more qualified.

>>>> Yes.  But they have to start somewhere, and so do you.  And you have
>>>> by taking a sysadmin job.
>>> System administration is entirely unrelated to my target area.
>> 
>> You want to get into programming?  You're wrong, it's totally related.
>> You write programs to accomplish sysadmin tasks, yes?  They may not be
>> OS- sized software engineering projects, but I know plenty of
>> programmers (remember where I work - I have spent time working with
>> people who do software engineering) who have made the move from
>> sysadmin work to software engineering.  It doesn't happen overnight,
>> but don't discount the experience of administering systems and writing
>> 3-line scripts as being "unrelated".  It's not.
> 
> I invent tasks that can be solved by programming, yes. I don't *need* to
> code anything. It's just a way of doing something fun while pretending
> to look busy.

I didn't ask if you *needed* to write code to accomplish the tasks, I 
asked if you *did* write code to accomplish the tasks.

You could, for example, go through a repetitive process to, say, update 
the password expiry for a group of users.  But why?  Write a program to 
do it and you get to do a little coding and you reduce the monotony.  
More to the point, that shows initiative to find ways to do jobs more 
efficiently, freeing up time for more important tasks.

That's an important skill.  And coding is a skill that many system admins 
don't have and also don't have any desire to learn.  Their loss, they get 
to do things the hard way.

>>>> Maybe it's time to search again.  Available jobs isn't a static list.
>>>> :-)
>>> No, but the number and type of jobs on offer is.
>> 
>> That's where you're WRONG!  The number and type of jobs on offer
>> changes as positions are filled and opened.
> 
> Well, I think you'll find the number of vacancies for (say) accountants
> vastly outnumbers positions for computer programmers. I doubt it varies
> significantly year upon year.

And that doubt is based on what factual information?  Or again, is it a 
guess and/or assumption?

Business evolves, and the need for programmers changes with the business 
cycle.  I've watched my company let programmers go and then turn around 
and rehire them (and others) because the skills are needed.

>>>> By your premise, anyone who works in a customer-facing position
>>>> should never have a good year because all customers are unreasonable.
>>> Are you telling me this *isn't* the case?
> 
>> So yes, I'm telling you that being customer facing is not a guarantee
>> of having a bad year, because I live in such a role.
> 
> Interesting. I wouldn't have believed it possible.

Well, there you go.  Consider for a minute, I'm an intelligent person who 
wants to be happy.  I wouldn't take a job or stay in a job long that was 
frustrating every single day.  That doesn't mean I don't have frustrating 
days, but it does mean that overall the good significantly outweighs the 
bad.  When it flips the other way, I'll start looking too - life's too 
short to spend 1/3 (or more) of every working day in a place that doesn't 
make me happy.

> OTOH, maybe you're just a different sort of person to me? For me,
> talking to strangers is almost unberably stressful - even if it's their
> job to *not* upset me! o_O

You think talking to strangers isn't stressful to me?  I hate doing it - 
especially cold calls to prospective testing centers.  I usually find 
someone else to do it for me - and it's something I've got to start doing 
more of.

I far prefer talking to people via e-mail because I like to think about 
what I'm saying before I say it.  I don't think I generally think well on 
my feet in a situation like a phone conversation, so I avoid it.

>> I now look back at that as a major turning point in my life (odd that,
>> because nobody does remember what was said or exactly what transpired)
>> - the moment when I spoke out and the world didn't end or come crashing
>> in on me.
> 
> Unfortunately, if I had done that, the three of them would have grabbed
> me and beaten me senseless.

Total nonsense.  Because, again, assault is illegal.  Most people aren't 
willing to go to jail for doing something stupid.

> Sure, they'd probably be punished for it. But that's not going to help
> me when I wake up in hospital, is it? (Assuming I wake up...)

As a deterrent, fear of being punished is a pretty strong motivator 
against acting out.

>> From what you described, it sounded like a very relaxed atmosphere -
>> and that means lower stress.  If the company has a good business plan
>> or has been around for a while, why not?  You spend at least 8 hours a
>> day in the office, so why not someplace where people don't take things
>> too seriously and where you're not under constant stress?
> 
> There's "relaxed" and there's "we're a bunch of juvanile twats". Now I
> could be wrong about this, but I'm saying when I was there the vibe
> didn't feel very good, that's all.

Well, I always think an instinct should be at least considered - and I 
don't know the company in question, and it may well be that they're a 
bunch of kids with no idea.  Or it could just be that they're very 
relaxed and comfortable around themselves and are very professional when 
dealing with clients.  I've seen people like that as well.

>>>> Think of it as gained confidence.
>>> It turns out there's a fine line between confidence and stupidity.
>> 
>> Maybe you're not trying to be funny, but that is funny. ;-)  The usual
>> way that is said is "bravery and stupidity".  But ultimately, so what?
>> Again, you had the guts to do something I've never done and even today
>> never would do (OK, part of that is because I'm happily married <g>).
> 
> Heh. Even Marcus, the womanizing wonder said he'd never do that.
> 
> ...so yeah, more stupid than brave. :-/

You've got to stop running yourself down.  Seriously.  Think better of 
yourself.

>>> Well, nice to know somebody alive actually likes me...
>> 
>> I think you'll find that I'm not the only one.
> 
> An alternative hypothesis might be that the few other people who like me
> are just kinda quiet about it.

A lot of people don't know how to express that.  Like me talking about 
your music - they think it sounds fake.  Doesn't mean they don't like you.

Jim

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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>>> Maybe it's time to search again.  Available jobs isn't a static list.
>>>> :-)
>>> No, but the number and type of jobs on offer is.
>> 
>> That's where you're WRONG!  The number and type of jobs on offer changes
>> as positions are filled and opened.
> 
> Well, I think you'll find the number of vacancies for (say) accountants
> vastly outnumbers positions for computer programmers. I doubt it varies
> significantly year upon year.

How many accountants does a single company need? And how many programmers?

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> How many accountants does a single company need? 

>=1

> And how many programmers?

0

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Warp wrote:
> Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
>> I suggested to her that maybe we could meet up today. Her response was 
>> that she's trying to "sort things out" with her boyfriend so it's 
>> "probably not a good idea".
> 
>   That sounds like girl code language for something else...

...and yet, every now and then, she does in fact text me. Not very 
often, but just occasionally. Weird...

(Today she claims she's moving house. Go figure.)

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> (Today she claims she's moving house. Go figure.)

Hint: The answer is "do you need help carrying stuff around?"

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   There's no CD like OCD, there's no CD I knoooow!

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Darren New wrote:
> Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> (Today she claims she's moving house. Go figure.)
> 
> Hint: The answer is "do you need help carrying stuff around?"

LOL! I don't think that's gonna work. ;-) Worth a giggle perhaps tho...

It's really weird how we ping text messages back and forth, and then 
suddenly she just stops replying. And then, like, a week later she 
starts chatting to me like nothing happened. WTF? Time skips??

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Invisible wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> (Today she claims she's moving house. Go figure.)
>>
>> Hint: The answer is "do you need help carrying stuff around?"
> 
> LOL! I don't think that's gonna work. ;-) Worth a giggle perhaps tho...

Why? Is she too far away or something?

> It's really weird how we ping text messages back and forth, and then 
> suddenly she just stops replying. And then, like, a week later she 
> starts chatting to me like nothing happened. WTF? Time skips??

Just something comes up, and the need to keep texting becomes a lower priority.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   There's no CD like OCD, there's no CD I knoooow!

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