On Mon, 04 May 2009 19:46:48 +0100, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

>>> Heh. I can just see me sitting on the pub reading Godel, Escher, Bach.
>>> ;-)
>>>
>>> [Which I haven't opened yet, BTW.]
>> 
>> Hey, it's a start. :-)
> 
> Why don't I just paint a sign on my head saying "hey, I'm a subhuman,
> it's OK to come over here and beat me to a pulp"? :-P

Because in most locales (a) beating someone to a pulp is illegal (it's 
called "assault" and can land the perp in jail), and (b) you may well 
find that other people are in fact interested in these topics.

>>> ...or maybe because to do an internship you have to already be doing a
>>> PhD? (And I'm not.)
>> 
>> Do you know that for a fact or are you guessing?
> 
> It's a guess. I know MSRC has this requirement, I don't know about the
> place I applied. (The ad didn't mention it.)

Don't guess, don't assume.  Find out the facts. :-)

>> First rule:  Don't assume they intentionally ignored you.  Assume they
>> made a mistake and meant to get back to you.
> 
> Well, I didn't know what to say with the *first* email, so what do I say
> with the second? "Hey, I know I'm so awesom that you must have just
> forgetten to reply to me"?

Just a quick "Hi, I am just following up to my first inquiry about your 
open position - is the position still available?  I am interested and 
would like more information."  Reference the position as well.

Keep it short and to the point.

>>>> Getting out on your own would probably be very good for you.
>>> Heh. Unless you believe me mum, who's been doing a sterling job of
>>> conditioning be to believe that I "couldn't cope" by myself. (Gee,
>>> wonder why that might be...)
>> 
>> Well, based on that statement, it sounds like she's afraid to be living
>> alone to me.  So she is trying to make you believe you couldn't handle
>> it on your own in order to cover up her own insecurity.  Or something
>> like that.
> 
> More like she wants to keep her slave handy. :-P

Not much of a difference, really.  I don't know your mum, but I know my 
mum has been going through a very difficult time since my dad passed 
away.  She laments when I talk to her on the phone that her boys aren't 
closer to home (I'm in Utah, my younger brother's in Japan).  She says 
she's not asking for anyone to come home, but she feels lonely because 
there's not a lot of family nearby.

Fear of being alone isn't uncommon.  Your mom's gotta be what, in her 40s 
or 50s?

>>> I can
>>> *totally* control that. When I apply to people, they ignore me or
>>> summarily reject me. That's in my control too.
>> 
>> Assumptions.  You can control what you assume.  So don't assume they're
>> intentionally ignoring you or rejecting you just because you haven't
>> heard anything back.
> 
> When somebody writes back and says "we don't want you", I take that as
> being a rejection, yes.

And when they do, it's their loss.  Bin it and move on.  I'm not saying 
it's easy to do so; I'm saying it's *necessary* to do so.

>> Going through the side entrance is the way to get noticed, in my
>> experience.  I have gotten jobs that "required" certifications and
>> college degrees by working around the system rather than through it.
>> Unconventional approaches work and are far better than being one of a
>> thousand or even a hundred people going through the "normal" process.
> 
> You're probably right about that. Unfortunately, I'm not real sure how
> to do that. (Presumably neither is anybody else - which is why the few
> who do get noticed.)

Well, I've given you a couple of ideas already.  Not all jobs are hidden 
from view, so find one that isn't where you know the company and inquire 
about it.  Find a company that you think you might like to work for and 
walk in and ask the receptionist if there are any open positions for 
someone with your skills, or if you can speak to someone in the HR 
department.

Go on interviews where you are certain you're unqualified but where the 
position is one you're interested in and would like to maybe do in 5 
years when you are more qualified.

>>>> Yes.  But they have to start somewhere, and so do you.  And you have
>>>> by taking a sysadmin job.
>>> System administration is entirely unrelated to my target area.
>> 
>> You want to get into programming?  You're wrong, it's totally related.
>> You write programs to accomplish sysadmin tasks, yes?  They may not be
>> OS- sized software engineering projects, but I know plenty of
>> programmers (remember where I work - I have spent time working with
>> people who do software engineering) who have made the move from
>> sysadmin work to software engineering.  It doesn't happen overnight,
>> but don't discount the experience of administering systems and writing
>> 3-line scripts as being "unrelated".  It's not.
> 
> I invent tasks that can be solved by programming, yes. I don't *need* to
> code anything. It's just a way of doing something fun while pretending
> to look busy.

I didn't ask if you *needed* to write code to accomplish the tasks, I 
asked if you *did* write code to accomplish the tasks.

You could, for example, go through a repetitive process to, say, update 
the password expiry for a group of users.  But why?  Write a program to 
do it and you get to do a little coding and you reduce the monotony.  
More to the point, that shows initiative to find ways to do jobs more 
efficiently, freeing up time for more important tasks.

That's an important skill.  And coding is a skill that many system admins 
don't have and also don't have any desire to learn.  Their loss, they get 
to do things the hard way.

>>>> Maybe it's time to search again.  Available jobs isn't a static list.
>>>> :-)
>>> No, but the number and type of jobs on offer is.
>> 
>> That's where you're WRONG!  The number and type of jobs on offer
>> changes as positions are filled and opened.
> 
> Well, I think you'll find the number of vacancies for (say) accountants
> vastly outnumbers positions for computer programmers. I doubt it varies
> significantly year upon year.

And that doubt is based on what factual information?  Or again, is it a 
guess and/or assumption?

Business evolves, and the need for programmers changes with the business 
cycle.  I've watched my company let programmers go and then turn around 
and rehire them (and others) because the skills are needed.

>>>> By your premise, anyone who works in a customer-facing position
>>>> should never have a good year because all customers are unreasonable.
>>> Are you telling me this *isn't* the case?
> 
>> So yes, I'm telling you that being customer facing is not a guarantee
>> of having a bad year, because I live in such a role.
> 
> Interesting. I wouldn't have believed it possible.

Well, there you go.  Consider for a minute, I'm an intelligent person who 
wants to be happy.  I wouldn't take a job or stay in a job long that was 
frustrating every single day.  That doesn't mean I don't have frustrating 
days, but it does mean that overall the good significantly outweighs the 
bad.  When it flips the other way, I'll start looking too - life's too 
short to spend 1/3 (or more) of every working day in a place that doesn't 
make me happy.

> OTOH, maybe you're just a different sort of person to me? For me,
> talking to strangers is almost unberably stressful - even if it's their
> job to *not* upset me! o_O

You think talking to strangers isn't stressful to me?  I hate doing it - 
especially cold calls to prospective testing centers.  I usually find 
someone else to do it for me - and it's something I've got to start doing 
more of.

I far prefer talking to people via e-mail because I like to think about 
what I'm saying before I say it.  I don't think I generally think well on 
my feet in a situation like a phone conversation, so I avoid it.

>> I now look back at that as a major turning point in my life (odd that,
>> because nobody does remember what was said or exactly what transpired)
>> - the moment when I spoke out and the world didn't end or come crashing
>> in on me.
> 
> Unfortunately, if I had done that, the three of them would have grabbed
> me and beaten me senseless.

Total nonsense.  Because, again, assault is illegal.  Most people aren't 
willing to go to jail for doing something stupid.

> Sure, they'd probably be punished for it. But that's not going to help
> me when I wake up in hospital, is it? (Assuming I wake up...)

As a deterrent, fear of being punished is a pretty strong motivator 
against acting out.

>> From what you described, it sounded like a very relaxed atmosphere -
>> and that means lower stress.  If the company has a good business plan
>> or has been around for a while, why not?  You spend at least 8 hours a
>> day in the office, so why not someplace where people don't take things
>> too seriously and where you're not under constant stress?
> 
> There's "relaxed" and there's "we're a bunch of juvanile twats". Now I
> could be wrong about this, but I'm saying when I was there the vibe
> didn't feel very good, that's all.

Well, I always think an instinct should be at least considered - and I 
don't know the company in question, and it may well be that they're a 
bunch of kids with no idea.  Or it could just be that they're very 
relaxed and comfortable around themselves and are very professional when 
dealing with clients.  I've seen people like that as well.

>>>> Think of it as gained confidence.
>>> It turns out there's a fine line between confidence and stupidity.
>> 
>> Maybe you're not trying to be funny, but that is funny. ;-)  The usual
>> way that is said is "bravery and stupidity".  But ultimately, so what?
>> Again, you had the guts to do something I've never done and even today
>> never would do (OK, part of that is because I'm happily married <g>).
> 
> Heh. Even Marcus, the womanizing wonder said he'd never do that.
> 
> ...so yeah, more stupid than brave. :-/

You've got to stop running yourself down.  Seriously.  Think better of 
yourself.

>>> Well, nice to know somebody alive actually likes me...
>> 
>> I think you'll find that I'm not the only one.
> 
> An alternative hypothesis might be that the few other people who like me
> are just kinda quiet about it.

A lot of people don't know how to express that.  Like me talking about 
your music - they think it sounds fake.  Doesn't mean they don't like you.

Jim

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