scott wrote:
>> better if I had more money. I'm working on getting my Eng. degree to 
>> have more.
> 
> Nah, just carry on stealing software, it's way easier than an 
> Engineering degree :-)

Well if ppl in the USA don't mind well, ok, fine by me :)

Believe it or not ppl in here ger more and more conscious that they're 
using pirated software. I'm hopping my Country gets to a 1st world like 
EU or USA/Canada where we can live and buy as u do.

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"Saul Luizaga" <sau### [at] netscapenet> wrote

> I know is unnecessary, I already wrote it, and I'm not just justifying
> it but explaining it. I don't care it get justified I thought was
> something I needed to write. I hope u never get to live in a 3rd world
> country and live on a local salary to actually understand the why, u
> don't care enough to imagine it and suffering it would be too much for u.

Truth be told, I really cannot imagine a circumstance under which not
pirating Haskell books would cause suffering for me, but I'm ready to take
your word for it.

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somebody wrote:
> "Saul Luizaga" <sau### [at] netscapenet> wrote
> 
> Truth be told, I really cannot imagine a circumstance under which not
> pirating Haskell books would cause suffering for me, but I'm ready to take
> your word for it.

I once upon a time made a google search about PC tech jobs, I found an 
offer in the UK that payed 200 Pounds a day for it, but the tech would 
be available on call 24/7. For me wasn't a big deal for the amount of 
money. Here in Bolivia i make 180 US$ a month which most of it if for 
services and food, so u can see the differences, buying a PC is a 
sacrifice, paying for software would be like buying another 2 PCs.

As a funny fact: the first time I saw a 'COMPUTER SHOPPER' magazine I 
was surprised that they offered software for a price with a new PC since 
here was always free for a new PC. U can buy very expensive programs 
like AutoCAD 2008 for about 2 US$ if the program is 1 DVD, 1.5 US$ if 
it's 1 CD, and so on. Now with torrents has become a way of living for 
some ppl, the persons that sell are some times ppl that don't know what 
they sell, they were hired to do the job. U can find a great variety of 
the most popular software here, all kinds, some "stores" has a website 
with a forums and has received formal threats from the BSA, but no 
closure so far and other 'stores' are doing the same.

Another funny fact: For some software would be cheaper for any of u 
"legal guys" to fly here "buy" the software and fly bak to ur countries :D.

U may thing is easy life here with such convenient software availability 
but no actually things suck very much, u have almost no rights here even 
when there is laws and Human Rights type organizations, justice is 
luxury u must pay, here in my job my own boss stoles sells from me to 
avoid giving me commissions, I can't quit coz I still need this 
miserable job. So, the sacrifice would be stop eating, transporting to 
my job or not having electricity, land phone or water or Internet to pay 
any software. I have no social life coz I can't pay for it. Fair enough 
for u? or I need to be more miserable to fit ur conscience criteria? I'm 
asking this rhetorically, as I said my conscience is at peace.

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"Saul Luizaga" <sau### [at] netscapenet> wrote in message
news:493a882f@news.povray.org...
> somebody wrote:
> > "Saul Luizaga" <sau### [at] netscapenet> wrote

> > Truth be told, I really cannot imagine a circumstance under which not
> > pirating Haskell books would cause suffering for me, but I'm ready to
take
> > your word for it.

[...]
> miserable job. So, the sacrifice would be stop eating, transporting to
> my job or not having electricity, land phone or water or Internet to pay
> any software. I have no social life coz I can't pay for it. Fair enough
> for u? or I need to be more miserable to fit ur conscience criteria?

I don't remember saying stealing is OK so long as you are poor and
miserable. In fact, I think abiding by ethical principles only when
convenient is, well, not really much of a virtue, but that's just me. You
are entitled to your own philosophy.

> I'm asking this rhetorically, as I said my conscience is at peace.

Ah, then I'm answering rhetorically as well.

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somebody wrote:
> miserable. In fact, I think abiding by ethical principles only when
> convenient is, well, not really much of a virtue, but that's just me. You

	Your statement would have value if abiding by ethical principles was a
binary state. Some don't see the world that way.


-- 
Feet Smell?  Nose Run?  Hey, you're upside down!


                    /\  /\               /\  /
                   /  \/  \ u e e n     /  \/  a w a z
                       >>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
                                   anl

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"Mueen Nawaz" <m.n### [at] ieeeorg> wrote in message
news:493c8410@news.povray.org...
> somebody wrote:

> > miserable. In fact, I think abiding by ethical principles only when
> > convenient is, well, not really much of a virtue, but that's just me.
You

> Your statement would have value if abiding by ethical principles was a
> binary state. Some don't see the world that way.

Fair enough. I freely admit that stealing a loaf of bread whilst starving is
vastly a different proposition than pirating Haskell books, and implied as
much (quoting myself; "...I really cannot imagine a circumstance under which
not pirating Haskell books would cause suffering for me"). In the former
case, I'd say that not stealing the bread is the unethical choice. On the
other hand, software, audio or media piracy doesn't follow from necessity at
all, the sob stories to justify it notwithstanding. It won't cause any sort
of suffering not to have an mp3 of the latest hit, or not to have a copy of
the latest version of Photoshop. It only follows from entitlement mentality,
not of necessity. There are literally millions of web pages with free
information about anything you can imagine, including Haskell, there is
radio, TV, libraries (the brick and mortar kind), OS or free software that
does pretty much anything you are likely to need... etc. Piracy
justification arguments are vacuous for that reason.

Post a reply to this message

somebody wrote:
> "Mueen Nawaz" <m.n### [at] ieeeorg> wrote in message
> news:493c8410@news.povray.org...
>> somebody wrote:
> 
>>> miserable. In fact, I think abiding by ethical principles only when
>>> convenient is, well, not really much of a virtue, but that's just me.
> You
> 
>> Your statement would have value if abiding by ethical principles was a
>> binary state. Some don't see the world that way.
> 
> Fair enough. I freely admit that stealing a loaf of bread whilst starving is
> vastly a different proposition than pirating Haskell books, and implied as
> much (quoting myself; "...I really cannot imagine a circumstance under which
> not pirating Haskell books would cause suffering for me"). In the former
> case, I'd say that not stealing the bread is the unethical choice. On the
> other hand, software, audio or media piracy doesn't follow from necessity at
> all, the sob stories to justify it notwithstanding. It won't cause any sort
> of suffering not to have an mp3 of the latest hit, or not to have a copy of
> the latest version of Photoshop. It only follows from entitlement mentality,
> not of necessity. There are literally millions of web pages with free
> information about anything you can imagine, including Haskell, there is
> radio, TV, libraries (the brick and mortar kind), OS or free software that
> does pretty much anything you are likely to need... etc. Piracy
> justification arguments are vacuous for that reason.

U try to show urself tolerant and understanding but u don't see the big 
picture and when I tried to show to u, u wrote that my ethics has no 
much virtue and that utterly I have not valid excuse, yeah... right...

Totalitarian ppl like urself is what causes ppl to have all kinds of 
trouble, like dictators for example or closed minded-regimens like 
Communist Governments. That is simply not being tolerant or understanding.

I'm not saying I feel guilty, all the contrary, but narrowing the vision 
because u assume "u know" my current condition and my Country's 
therefore I'm totally guilty is wrong and pretentious assumption from u. 
I wrote u once that u don't care enough to imagine less fortunate 
conditions than urs and u still don't but u pretend to give me solutions 
that are ethically correct and would simply be the "perfect" solution no 
mather what I can argument. As I mentioned before u as other "perfect" 
Christians (Catholic and Protestants included) are the first to betray 
their ethics when things get hard, I laugh at "ethic" and "legal" ppl 
claiming  how perfect they behave, the higher they are the harder they 
fall, I have seen it COUNTLESS times. Ppl that actually sees necessity 
where there are some has true ethics and endures even prosper in harsh 
times. I'm not one of them but I try to imitate them, I have ethics that 
most technicians don't follow coz it's "too good". The only complain 
u'll probably find on any of my clients or my Company's clients is that 
I'm slow, coz I take 3 times the time to make a PC/Notebook, the fastest 
and secured possible today with all the software they're gonna need.

The system tools and utilities I use to make my job are often google 
searchs to find the best tools, some of them are freeware, those are 
mostly the software I use not the latest mp3 or apps, even I could 
EASILY download probably all that I would want. I have ethics, one that 
can respect ppl and their property and can put food on my plate for me 
and my family. U think what ever u want about it, u don't know me, my 
situation and probably don't even know where Bolivia is a World map, let 
alone the way of life here or any third world Country for that matter. 
But u must be comfortably  earning enough money to live and pay ur way 
of life in a first world Country with all the things u want at pass of 
ur credit card... so typical...

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Invisible wrote:

> Ah yes, Haskell's legendary documentation. It's scattered all over the 
> place, half of it is published as academic papers that you and I can't 
> access, much of it is written for compiler designers and academics 
> rather than actual *programmers* who just want to know how to use the 
> thing, and lots of stuff isn't documented _at all_.
> 
> For example, laziness can be a bad thing. This is highly non-obvious, 
> and it ISN'T EXPLAINED ANYWHERE. If you pop into the IRC channel and ask 
> about it, somebody will explain it. But then it's *still* not written 
> down for the next newbie who wants to know. It's sort of an oral 
> tradition; there are many "well known" techniques, but nobody has 
> written any of this stuff down anywhere, making it infuriatingly hard to 
> learn about this stuff.
> 


> 
> ....which neatly demonstrates my point. Programs compiled with GHC 
> contain C debugging symbols by default - even though these are 
> completely useless in a *Haskell* program. By using a special 
> command-line switch, you can "strip" the symbols, making a typical 
> program about 200KB smaller. But this isn't written down anywhere; I 
> found out about it by chatting to people on IRC.
> 
> And yes, Haskell is designed for writing complex algorithms easily. If 
> you want *speed*, it's very non-obvious how to do this. There is some 
> scattered documentation about it, but currently the most expedient 
> method is to post the source code and ask Don to look at it for you. ;-)


> It's the website for a book that just got released and is meant to 
> explain all this stuff - not just the language syntax, but how to work 
> the compiler, what the best coding strategies are, etc.
> 
> I must say, I was very excited about this book, but having actually read 
> it now it's out, I'm dissapointed. Still, it's a single *large*, 
> coherant body of information, all in one place. That's a step in the 
> right direction...
> 

It sounds like you are getting / are very involved with Haskell and know 
  at least more than me about its inner workings.

FWIW Why not start writing some of the things that you just mentioned 
down and make them available.

You could provide a web site with simple articles explaining some of 
these things.

You could turn it into a <gasp> published book </gasp>.


Tom

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FWIW, I'm more tolerant to some piracy than to people using "u" and "ppl"
and "coz" repeatedly >.<

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"Saul Luizaga" <sau### [at] netscapenet> wrote

[snipped a bunch of ad hominems]

> of life in a first world Country with all the things u want at pass of
> ur credit card... so typical...

If "u" are going to pirate, pirate. That's your business. I doubt that
calling me a totalitarian dictator, communist, uncaring, pretentious,
ignorant... etc, as well as making quick (and wrong) assumptions about my
origins or beliefs will strengthen the argument that it's just fine for
those from the third world to pirate.

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