scott wrote:

> I agree with what Paul wrote, especially the employment history.  Beef 
> it out a bit and take out the negative words like "small".

I posted a sheet of paper to two-dozen people, typed the filled in 
results into an Access database, and printed some pie charts. If you 
take out the word "small" it sounds like I did something really major.

Similarly for the scripting; copying some files from A to B isn't 
exactly rocket science. It's not like I developed a major application. 
It's just some small utilities.

> Use a 
> smaller font size if you can't fit it all on 2 sides, the one you are 
> using is quite large.

Kwi?

> Beef it out more depending on the job you are 
> applying for, eg if you are applying for a programming job then explain 
> more about the scripts and tools you've written.

Is anybody going to care that I wrote a program to copy some files 
around? I mean, we're talking about a few dozen lines of code here. It's 
not exactly GCC.

> Under your skills profile, I would actually write the complete list of 
> languages you have a "long history" with, drop the "etc" at the end.

Hmm, yes, that sentence can be misinterpretted. It makes it sound like I 
have a "long history" with the specific languages listed; I actually 
meant I just have a long history of programming in general.

> Beef out the last bullet point and 
> make it clear that you can learn new languages quickly, if they are 
> expecting you to use a language you are not proficient with this will help.

Heh. Should I include the anicdote about the time I got so bored that I 
learned PostScript in my lunch break just for something to do? ;-) I 
think it's a great story, but I'm not sure whether I should actually 
mention it.

> Bear in mind that when someone is looking at your CV they want to see 
> *evidence* of what you say you are a good at.  For everything you say 
> you do or like, try to think of something that proves you are.  eg 
> "developed a number of scripts", add afterwards something like "these 
> have been working successfully to save blah blah blah and have improved 
> reliability and uptime blah blah".  I think Paul said something similar.

Hmm, this is difficult. I've been programming for decades, but I don't 
really have anything useful to *show* for it. I suppose I could try to 

BackupExec license (although that really is flexing the truth somewhat 
severely).

> Beef out the bit about working liaising with staff, especially the US 
> dudes, nowadays most companies have to deal with foreign people at some 
> time or another and it shows you can communicate effectively.  Also 
> expand the "plan future upgrades" bit, make it sound like you are part 
> of the team that is designing the network rather than just looking after 
> it.

Well I'm *supposed* to work with the US dudes, and I'm *supposed* to be 
responsible for planning future upgrades. But frankly, nobody really 
bothers to communicate with me any more. I just find out about these 
decisions when new hardware arrives on the doorstep.

> Take out the things like filing and photocopying, any monkey can (and 
> does) do that and they are interviewing you for a programmer, not an 
> office assistant.

OK.

> Take out your college diploma and GCSE results (I think you said you'd 
> already done that), and beef out your degree details if you have space. 

Do *you* see any GCSE results listed? I don't.

> It looks a bit confusing at the moment, I would group it into 1st 2nd 
> and 3rd year and then put the details under each.

You realise that the grades I mentioned are just the good ones, right? 
Most of my grades were far less stellar. (E.g., for Accounts & Auditing, 
I think I got a D-. The Research project was an F+. And several 1st year 
modules I failed outright.)

[Nitpick: It was a 4-year course.]

> If I were you I would 
> also take out the grade for your final year project, and replace it with 
> some more details about the project.  Some poeple who are looking at the 
> CV might not know what MVC stands for?

Does it matter? MVC is highly unlikely to be even remotely relevant to 
anything I'll be doing. (And it would take several paragraphs to explain.)

> If you still have space to fill, add in a small "personal hobbies" 
> section, I know some employers want to see some evidence that you have a 
> life outside of work subjects, so it can't hurt.  Just think up of a few 
> non-computing activities you've done once or twice in your life :-) 
> they're not going to ask for proof.

Hmm. Skiing? Rock climbing? SALSA?? Hahaha!

> Remember a CV is there to sell yourself, someone is going to read 20 CVs 
> and choose a few to interview, you want to do everything possible 
> (without lying obviously) to make sure they choose yours.

Yeah... I get the concept. I'm just not sure how to put across how great 
I am without it sounding like I'm blatently lying.

Post a reply to this message

> If you take out the word "small" it sounds like I did something really 
> major.

Good.

> Similarly for the scripting; copying some files from A to B isn't exactly 
> rocket science. It's not like I developed a major application. It's just 
> some small utilities.

Which you'd be surprised how few people could actually get working.  Didn't 
you write something here about that automatic ping program you wrote?  If 
you want, make a list of the titles of each small utility you wrote to help 
with your job, it shows you can.

> Kwi?

Eh?

> Heh. Should I include the anicdote about the time I got so bored that I 
> learned PostScript in my lunch break just for something to do? ;-) I think 
> it's a great story, but I'm not sure whether I should actually mention it.

Yes mention it, not in that way, but list PS as one of the languages you are 
"familiar" with, and even mention that you learnt how to use it in a couple 
of hours if it fits in.

> I suppose I could try to claim that the lab backup script I wrote saved us 


Well go for it then, just say something like a script you wrote saved the 
company needing to buy a commerical piece of software that would have cost 
8K.  They are not going to interrogate your manager to check if this is 
exactly true, but they will probably ask you questions about it so there's 
no point in lying.

> Well I'm *supposed* to work with the US dudes, and I'm *supposed* to be 
> responsible for planning future upgrades. But frankly, nobody really 
> bothers to communicate with me any more. I just find out about these 
> decisions when new hardware arrives on the doorstep.

That's all discussion for the interview, when you can explain how you try to 
improve the way the US dudes think about backup, protocols, systems, 
documentation etc.  For the CV just put that you work with them on the 
network infrastructure etc.  In the CV you want to leave no doubt about what 
you do, make it impossible for the person reading it to think "oh well it 
looks like maybe he just does nothing each day".

> Do *you* see any GCSE results listed? I don't.

I see you said you got 3 GCSEs.  That of course leads to the question "does 
he only have 3 GCSEs? that's a bit weird.".  Take out the whole line and 
don't even mention your school.  Leave in the bit at Milton Keynes College 
if you want, but I am thinking you are a bit too old now to be listing what 
you did before University, especially as it wasn't via the normal "A levels" 
path - take it out altogether!

> You realise that the grades I mentioned are just the good ones, right?

Right, but C- sounds bad, and is worse than the others.  If they ask you in 
the interview then you can explain that the grades go down to F or G and 
that you got a C-.  A C- by itself looks bad and there's no space in the CV 
to explain.

> [Nitpick: It was a 4-year course.]

That's why I suggested making it clearer what you did each year, and it will 
then be obvious that it was a 4 year course and not force someone to check 
the years and then guess if you took a year out or whatever.

> Does it matter? MVC is highly unlikely to be even remotely relevant to 
> anything I'll be doing. (And it would take several paragraphs to explain.)

It doesn't matter if it's relevant or not, just write out the words because 
someone who doesn't know what MVC stands for is going to feel much better 
just seeing the words (even if they don't understand) compared to if they 
just see MVC.  Can you not just write a couple more sentences about the 
project, how much of your time did it take up, individual or group project 
etc?

> Hmm. Skiing? Rock climbing? SALSA?? Hahaha!

Exactly.  And photography?  Sound and music production/recording, PLAYING 
THE ORGAN!

Post a reply to this message

scott wrote:
>> If you take out the word "small" it sounds like I did something really 
>> major.
> 
> Good.

Where I'm from, lying isn't good.

>> Similarly for the scripting; copying some files from A to B isn't 
>> exactly rocket science. It's not like I developed a major application. 
>> It's just some small utilities.
> 
> Which you'd be surprised how few people could actually get working.  
> Didn't you write something here about that automatic ping program you 
> wrote?  If you want, make a list of the titles of each small utility you 
> wrote to help with your job, it shows you can.

Mmm, OK...

>> Kwi?
> 
> Eh?

I had having trouble parsing the multiple negatives in your sentence.

>> Heh. Should I include the anicdote about the time I got so bored that 
>> I learned PostScript in my lunch break just for something to do? ;-) I 
>> think it's a great story, but I'm not sure whether I should actually 
>> mention it.
> 
> Yes mention it, not in that way, but list PS as one of the languages you 
> are "familiar" with, and even mention that you learnt how to use it in a 
> couple of hours if it fits in.

I was just listing the languages that readers are most likely to care 
about, but yeah, I guess I could add PostScript.

The point I was really trying to make is that "normal people" don't 
spend their lunch break learning new technical skills that they don't 
actually need for anything "just for the hell of it". Only seriously 
motivated people do that. (And yeah, the fact that it only took me a few 
hours to learn is good too. But motivation is surely good, eh?)

>> I suppose I could try to claim that the lab backup script I wrote 

> 
> Well go for it then, just say something like a script you wrote saved 
> the company needing to buy a commerical piece of software that would 
> have cost 8K.  They are not going to interrogate your manager to check 
> if this is exactly true, but they will probably ask you questions about 
> it so there's no point in lying.


Oracle consultant when our DB died... but it's not massively relevant here.

>> Well I'm *supposed* to work with the US dudes, and I'm *supposed* to 
>> be responsible for planning future upgrades. But frankly, nobody 
>> really bothers to communicate with me any more. I just find out about 
>> these decisions when new hardware arrives on the doorstep.
> 
> That's all discussion for the interview, when you can explain how you 
> try to improve the way the US dudes think about backup, protocols, 
> systems, documentation etc.  For the CV just put that you work with them 
> on the network infrastructure etc.

M'okay.

> In the CV you want to leave no doubt 
> about what you do, make it impossible for the person reading it to think 
> "oh well it looks like maybe he just does nothing each day".

The trouble is... I *do* do nothing each day! o_O

>> Do *you* see any GCSE results listed? I don't.
> 
> I see you said you got 3 GCSEs.

Hmmm... well spotted.

> That of course leads to the question 
> "does he only have 3 GCSEs? that's a bit weird.".  Take out the whole 
> line and don't even mention your school.  Leave in the bit at Milton 
> Keynes College if you want, but I am thinking you are a bit too old now 
> to be listing what you did before University, especially as it wasn't 
> via the normal "A levels" path - take it out altogether!

OK. That should free up some space...

>> You realise that the grades I mentioned are just the good ones, right?
> 
> Right, but C- sounds bad, and is worse than the others.  If they ask you 
> in the interview then you can explain that the grades go down to F or G 
> and that you got a C-.  A C- by itself looks bad and there's no space in 
> the CV to explain.

OK then.

>> [Nitpick: It was a 4-year course.]
> 
> That's why I suggested making it clearer what you did each year, and it 
> will then be obvious that it was a 4 year course and not force someone 
> to check the years and then guess if you took a year out or whatever.

Alright...

>> Does it matter? MVC is highly unlikely to be even remotely relevant to 
>> anything I'll be doing. (And it would take several paragraphs to 
>> explain.)
> 
> It doesn't matter if it's relevant or not, just write out the words 
> because someone who doesn't know what MVC stands for is going to feel 
> much better just seeing the words (even if they don't understand) 
> compared to if they just see MVC.  Can you not just write a couple more 
> sentences about the project, how much of your time did it take up, 
> individual or group project etc?

Well MVC is.. uh... a GUI technology. And my project was to make it so 
that the UI can be on a different machine to the backend. But with less 
network overhead than X11 / VNC / RDP / other bitmap-based technologies, 
and more responsiveness than HTML over HTTP.

(Of course, today people don't care any more. They just use HTTP for 
*everything*. God that sucks...)

>> Hmm. Skiing? Rock climbing? SALSA?? Hahaha!
> 
> Exactly.  And photography?  Sound and music production/recording, 
> PLAYING THE ORGAN!

OMG YES, PIPE ORGANS FTW! HOW CAN THEY NOT HIRE ME?! :-D

Post a reply to this message

Paul Fuller wrote:

> Your actual work history over 6 years amounts to 5 bullet points and 
> less than half a page !

Hmm. I should probably change the part where I says I have "5 years' 
experience". Let's make it at least look like I can *count*! o_O

Post a reply to this message

Orchid XP v8 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> I've attached my CV. Please don't laugh. :-P
>
> I don't *have* a covering letter. If I find a company interesting enough
> for me to contact them directly, I write something from scratch.
> (Depending on how I heard of them, what line of work they're in, how
> closely my skills match what they seem to be looking for, etc.)
>

Hi Andrew

It is a good idea to tailor your covering letter for each job.
Here is my attempt to tart up your CV. Of course as others have said you need to
fill out your job description.


Good luck


Stephen

Post a reply to this message

Attachments:
Download 'cv-v5-programmer-smca.doc.dat' (30 KB)

Invisible wrote:
> I posted a sheet of paper to two-dozen people, typed the filled in 
> results into an Access database, and printed some pie charts. If you 
> take out the word "small" it sounds like I did something really major.

It doesn't matter!  Do you think the HR person reading the CV can do 
that?  Do you think others applying for the job are going to downplay 
their skills?

> Similarly for the scripting; copying some files from A to B isn't 
> exactly rocket science. It's not like I developed a major application. 

> It's just some small utilities.

No, it's an important backup utility.

> Is anybody going to care that I wrote a program to copy some files 
> around? I mean, we're talking about a few dozen lines of code here. It'
s 
> not exactly GCC.

Yes. It's an important backup and data access utility. When you get to 
the interview, they may or may not ask you.

>> Under your skills profile, I would actually write the complete list of
 
>> languages you have a "long history" with, drop the "etc" at the end.
> 
> Hmm, yes, that sentence can be misinterpretted. It makes it sound like 
I 
> have a "long history" with the specific languages listed; I actually 
> meant I just have a long history of programming in general.

That's good. You can explain that at the interview. :-)

> Heh. Should I include the anicdote about the time I got so bored that I
 
> learned PostScript in my lunch break just for something to do? ;-) I 
> think it's a great story, but I'm not sure whether I should actually 
> mention it.

Mention it at the interview.

> Hmm, this is difficult. I've been programming for decades, but I don't 

> really have anything useful to *show* for it. I suppose I could try to 



> BackupExec license (although that really is flexing the truth somewhat 

> severely).

Yes. That's exactly the attitude to take. Redo the whole resume with 
that sort of thought in mind.

> Well I'm *supposed* to work with the US dudes, and I'm *supposed* to be
 
> responsible for planning future upgrades. 

You're responsible. You don't have to downplay that either. :-)

> You realise that the grades I mentioned are just the good ones, right? 


That's the point of a resume.

> Most of my grades were far less stellar. (E.g., for Accounts & Auditing
, 
> I think I got a D-. The Research project was an F+. And several 1st yea
r 
> modules I failed outright.)

As an aside, I've never heard of an F+ before. :-)

> Does it matter? MVC is highly unlikely to be even remotely relevant to 

> anything I'll be doing. (And it would take several paragraphs to explai
n.)

Designed and implemented advanced modular user input and presentation 
framework.

> Hmm. Skiing? Rock climbing? SALSA?? Hahaha!

Pipe organ recitals!

> Yeah... I get the concept. I'm just not sure how to put across how grea
t 
> I am without it sounding like I'm blatently lying.

You just don't say anything negative.  Again, don't take this as 
anything more than friendly advice, but try this sort of thing:


Skills:

Extensive knowledge of and passion for a diverse range of topics in 
computing, mathematics and science, including cryptology, 3D graphics, 
artificial neural networks, symbolic computation, and numerous other 
related fields.

Eighteen year history of .... then list every language you could write 
Hello World in. :-)

Passion for teaching and mentoring, with a strong track record of 
explaining complex topics in understandable ways. Samples available on 
request.

Responsible for keeping the UK computing center operational for 30 staff 

members using 50 workstations. The systems included four servers, a 
local LAN, and Internet connectivity. Responsibilities included ensuring 

compliance with extensive government regulations, integration with the 
US offices overseas, and all forms of technical support for computer 
operations. This includes creation and maintenance of database structure 

and operations (including assurance of the safety of irreplacable 
medical data) and creation of numerous custom programs for maintenance 
of file and database information, saving 8000 via automation in the year 

they were implemented. <Like they're going to check that?>

Created and maintained computer policies and procedures, documenting 
same. Documents were approved and even complimented by the auditors of 
<insert company/government agency here>.

Created and executed client surveys to <what?> gather data on new yadda 
yadda, resulting in retention of several major clients.  <You can't just 

say you did it - add in what the result was, even if you have to stretch>


1998-2002
Smalltalk and Java, a pure interpreted OO language and a popular 
powerful compiled OO language.  Also classwork on theory and 
practicalities of database design and organization, as well as a 
practical unit using the Oracle database product.

Also studied interfacing these technologies to the WWW, with detailed 
studies of both run-time performance and developer efficiency. Classes 
on operating systems covered file system design and scheduling dispatch. 

Computer graphics covered both high-quality ray tracing and high-speed 
polygonal rendering with modern graphics cards.

Final year project was to research, design, and implement a distributed 
user interface component using best practices in modularity and efficienc
y.


You can't just say "I did C and Pascal."  You have to say what *you* 
did, not what Ritchie and Wirth did. :-) Pretend the person looking at 
your resume didn't go to school for computers and doesn't even know what 

any of those words mean.

Also, at least in the USA, a lot of places now will just filter on 
keywords. If they're looking for someone to do Oracle databases, they 
toss any resume that doesn't have to word "Oracle" in it without looking 

at it.  So at the bottom of my resume, I put in fairly small print all 
the OSes, languages, frameworks, etc that I'm familiar with, just as a 
list of "technology summary".  It gets you past the automatic 
resume-spam filter.


-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

Post a reply to this message

Invisible wrote:
> Where I'm from, lying isn't good.

It's not lying. It's no more lying than leaving out the bad grades. 
Whether the scripts were small or not is irrelevant. Nobody else could 
have done it, and it saved the company $8000. The people interviewing 
you care about that sort of thing, not how many lines it took.

> Mmm, OK...

And include it as "wrote dozens of custom utility programs to diagnose 
and automatically correct problems, including network diagnostics 
superior to those employed by our ISP."  ;-)

> I was just listing the languages that readers are most likely to care 
> about, but yeah, I guess I could add PostScript.

Add everything you know. You're trying to get a job where knowing stuff 
is important. The more you list, the more obvious it is you can learn 
stuff.

> The point I was really trying to make is that "normal people" don't 
> spend their lunch break learning new technical skills that they don't 
> actually need for anything "just for the hell of it". Only seriously 
> motivated people do that. 

And seriously smart people.


 
> Oracle consultant when our DB died... but it's not massively relevant h
ere.



you get hired there, because that's how much you'll save them.

>> In the CV you want to leave no doubt about what you do, make it 
>> impossible for the person reading it to think "oh well it looks like 
>> maybe he just does nothing each day".
> 
> The trouble is... I *do* do nothing each day! o_O

But you're not supposed to show that. You want them to ask you why 
you're looking for a new job, at which point you can say "this one isn't 

challenging enough, and I want to stretch my capabilities."

> Well MVC is.. uh... a GUI technology. And my project was to make it so 

> that the UI can be on a different machine to the backend. But with less
 
> network overhead than X11 / VNC / RDP / other bitmap-based technologies
, 
> and more responsiveness than HTML over HTTP.

Yep. Describe it that way. You don't even have to mention MVC. Just 
describe what it does and why it's important, just like you did there. 
"Allows high-quality interactive user graphics to be distributed across 
the network with less overhead and more responsiveness than competing 
mechanisms, programmed using best industry practices of modularity and 
maintainability, as befits an academic exercise."

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

Post a reply to this message

Darren New wrote:

> Do you think others applying for the job are going to downplay 
> their skills?

Now there's an interesting problem. These guys will have stacks of 
people applying to them who are *lying through their teeth* about their 
actual capabilities. How do I distinguish myself from these frauds?

>> Is anybody going to care that I wrote a program to copy some files 
>> around? I mean, we're talking about a few dozen lines of code here. 
>> It's not exactly GCC.
> 
> Yes. It's an important backup and data access utility. When you get to 
> the interview, they may or may not ask you.

M'ok, whatever you say...

>> Heh. Should I include the anicdote about the time I got so bored that 
>> I learned PostScript in my lunch break just for something to do? ;-) I 
>> think it's a great story, but I'm not sure whether I should actually 
>> mention it.
> 
> Mention it at the interview.

OK.

>> Hmm, this is difficult. I've been programming for decades, but I don't 
>> really have anything useful to *show* for it. I suppose I could try to 

>> BackupExec license (although that really is flexing the truth somewhat 
>> severely).
> 
> Yes. That's exactly the attitude to take. Redo the whole resume with 
> that sort of thought in mind.

What, severely exaggerating the truth throughout?

>> Well I'm *supposed* to work with the US dudes, and I'm *supposed* to 
>> be responsible for planning future upgrades. 
> 
> You're responsible. You don't have to downplay that either. :-)

Heh, OK.

>> You realise that the grades I mentioned are just the good ones, right? 
> 
> That's the point of a resume.

My point being that only a few of my grades *were* good. Most of them 
weren't.

>> Most of my grades were far less stellar. (E.g., for Accounts & 
>> Auditing, I think I got a D-. The Research project was an F+. And 
>> several 1st year modules I failed outright.)
> 
> As an aside, I've never heard of an F+ before. :-)

IIRC, work was graded on a scale from A down to F, with U meaning 
"ungraded" - i.e., you failed completely.

> Pipe organ recitals!

LOL! As if anybody is going to care... but sure, I can put that in. ;-)

> Eighteen year history of .... then list every language you could write 
> Hello World in. :-)

Erm, I can see this getting me into trouble. It's unwise to claim 
extensive experience with something unless you really do *have* that 
experience.

> Passion for teaching and mentoring, with a strong track record of 
> explaining complex topics in understandable ways. Samples available on 
> request.

Er, dude... like *what*? :-P

> Responsible for keeping the UK computing center operational for 30 staff 
> members using 50 workstations. The systems included four servers, a 
> local LAN, and Internet connectivity. Responsibilities included ensuring 
> compliance with extensive government regulations,

Do I mention the precise regulations in question? In case somebody might 
have heard of them?

> saving 8000 via automation in the year 
> they were implemented. <Like they're going to check that?>

No, but they're going to quizz me about it, so I'd better have a good 
story to tell them.

> Created and maintained computer policies and procedures, documenting 
> same. Documents were approved and even complimented by the auditors of 
> <insert company/government agency here>.

I don't think I'd actually be able to track down exactly which auditors 
specifically mentioned my documents. (I don't think it survived in 
documented form, it was just mentioned informally in the final 
debriefing, which isn't recorded anywhere.)

> Created and executed client surveys to <what?> gather data on new yadda 
> yadda, resulting in retention of several major clients.  <You can't just 
> say you did it - add in what the result was, even if you have to stretch>

We're talking about a vuluntary sector company with a grand total of 3 
employees (not including me) and about 14 "customers". There's nothing 
"major" about it. :-P

What I *could* claim is that the data I produced helped them 
successfully secure additional government funding. (This is why they 
wanted the stats - but I have no clue whether they actually got any 
extra funding as a result.)

> 1998-2002
> Smalltalk and Java, a pure interpreted OO language and a popular 
> powerful compiled OO language.  Also classwork on theory and 
> practicalities of database design and organization, as well as a 
> practical unit using the Oracle database product.
> 
> Also studied interfacing these technologies to the WWW, with detailed 
> studies of both run-time performance and developer efficiency. Classes 
> on operating systems covered file system design and scheduling dispatch. 
> Computer graphics covered both high-quality ray tracing and high-speed 
> polygonal rendering with modern graphics cards.

The last two there being particularly relevant for the company I'm about 
to try to get attention from. (They design stuff like low-end 3D 
hardware and MPEG decoders.)

> You can't just say "I did C and Pascal."  You have to say what *you* 
> did, not what Ritchie and Wirth did. :-) Pretend the person looking at 
> your resume didn't go to school for computers and doesn't even know what 
> any of those words mean.

Whohewho? o_O

> Also, at least in the USA, a lot of places now will just filter on 
> keywords. If they're looking for someone to do Oracle databases, they 
> toss any resume that doesn't have to word "Oracle" in it without looking 
> at it.  So at the bottom of my resume, I put in fairly small print all 
> the OSes, languages, frameworks, etc that I'm familiar with, just as a 
> list of "technology summary".  It gets you past the automatic 
> resume-spam filter.

Maybe I should construct a finite-order Markov model from past 
successful CVs and use that to auto-generate apparently valid English 
content? :-D

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

>> Where I'm from, lying isn't good.
> 
> It's not lying. It's no more lying than leaving out the bad grades.

Technically yes. But claiming to have "extensive knowledge of AutoCAD" 
when really you just work filling paper in an office where AudoCAD is 
used with be an exaggeration to the point of lying. Similarly, claiming 
to have done a large-scale software development exercise when all you 
really did was 20 minutes' work is rather dishonest.

> Whether the scripts were small or not is irrelevant. Nobody else could 
> have done it, and it saved the company $8000. The people interviewing 
> you care about that sort of thing, not how many lines it took.

Well, maybe.

> And include it as "wrote dozens of custom utility programs to diagnose 
> and automatically correct problems, including network diagnostics 
> superior to those employed by our ISP."  ;-)

This is again untrue. The scripts don't "correct" anything, they merely 
monitor, and for a fee our ISP can probably provide us with all kinds of 
far superior software and hardware - and even personnel to run it. (It's 
amazing what companies will do for you if you pay them enough money...)

> Add everything you know. You're trying to get a job where knowing stuff 
> is important. The more you list, the more obvious it is you can learn 
> stuff.

So, what, just dump a giant laundry list of stuff?

Where do I stop? I mean, I could say I know HTML, CSS, XML, XSLT, LaTeX, 
PostScript, AmigaGuide... where do you draw the line?

>> The point I was really trying to make is that "normal people" don't 
>> spend their lunch break learning new technical skills that they don't 
>> actually need for anything "just for the hell of it". Only seriously 
>> motivated people do that. 
> 
> And seriously smart people.

I hypothesize that people become seriously smart by being seriously 
motivated. ;-)


>> Oracle consultant when our DB died... but it's not massively relevant 
>> here.
> 

> you get hired there, because that's how much you'll save them.

If I was applying for an Oracle role... sure. But I'm not.

>> The trouble is... I *do* do nothing each day! o_O
> 
> But you're not supposed to show that.

Sure. But it's hard to disguise something that's actually true.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> This is again untrue. The scripts don't "correct" anything,

You never wrote a script that fixed something?

> and for a fee our ISP can probably provide us with all kinds of 
> far superior software and hardware - and even personnel to run it. (It'
s 
> amazing what companies will do for you if you pay them enough money...)


Sure. And you did it without paying the fee. That's the point.

Suggestion: don't put on your resume that there are a whole bunch of 
other more-experienced people available, either. They know that too. :-)

> Where do I stop? I mean, I could say I know HTML, CSS, XML, XSLT, LaTeX
, 
> PostScript, AmigaGuide... where do you draw the line?

Yep. Put all that in. Anything you think an employer might need.

> I hypothesize that people become seriously smart by being seriously 
> motivated. ;-)

They become seriously educated by being smart and motivated. :-)


en 
>> you get hired there, because that's how much you'll save them.
> 
> If I was applying for an Oracle role... sure. But I'm not.

How do you know you're not?  The company you're applying for may have an 

unadvertised opening for someone translating LaTeX documents stored in 
their Oracle database into HTML and PostScript.

>>> The trouble is... I *do* do nothing each day! o_O
>> But you're not supposed to show that.
> Sure. But it's hard to disguise something that's actually true.

No doubt. But important nonetheless. :-)

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)

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