Invisible wrote:
>>> In another part of the license, it says "by downloading this software 
>>> you agree to the terms of this license" - but you cannot *see* those 
>>> terms until after you download it. ;-)
>>
>> In the USA, that's going to generally be unenforcable. You have to 
>> know what you're agreeing to before you agree to it. Basic contract law.
> 
> So it should say "by *using* this software you agree". ;-)

Basically, yes. But it has to be provable (to some degree of "provable") 
that you actually saw and understood the license. They can't let you 
download the package, have the license on a different page of their 
website, and then say "you agreed because you used it."

>> By putting it on more machines than you have CDs, you're making 
>> additional copies, which can be restricted against your will by 
>> copyright law. But if you only have three, and you didn't agree to a 
>> license at all, and you put it on three machines, you're golden. At 
>> least, in the USA.
> 
> OK. And the fact that I can download an unlimited number of copies from 
> their website with no record at all changes... what, exactly?

Changes compared to what? Technically, since you're the one requesting 
the download, you're the one making the copy. Computers don't make 
copies, people do.

> If you claim that owning a physical CD is the "license", 

I don't. Again, you're confusing two entirely different pieces of law. 
Owning a physical CD means someone else made the copy for you. Having a 
license isn't even covered by laws in the same government as making copies.

> downloading the software from their website is essentially illegal 

If they say "it's OK to download the software" without adding "as long 
as you agree to the license", then they're giving you permission to make 
a copy of their software by downloading it. (This is called a "license" 
in copyright terms, but I'm trying not to confuse things further - 
that's a different license than the one you agree to when you"use" the 
software.) If they don't condition the download on you accepting their 
usage license, then they can't impose that usage license later unless 
you re-agree to it.

It's really a pretty simple thing that's getting made complicated. 
Copyright law says you're not allowed to make a copy[1] without 
permission of the copyright holder. Contract law says there are six 
things[2] that have to be true about a contract before it is enforcable, 
one of which is that both parties must understand what it means and 
agree to be bound by it. One of the things copyright law *explicitly* 
allows is for you to make a copy if that's the normal way of using a 
product. You can't say "you can buy a copy of this audio CD, but you're 
not allowed to copy the bits into the RAM of the CD player." Once you 
have a copy of a program on a CD, and the normal way to use it is to 
copy it into the memory of the computer, that's technically not "making 
   a copy" any more than reading a book is "copying it into your brain".

But if you haven't agreed to the license, you're not bound by the 
license, even if copyright law says you're allowed to make a copy or to 
do whatever you want with the copy you bought. If they let you make a 
copy without agreeing to the license, they can't bind you to the license 
without further getting your explicit agreement to it. Hence the whole 
"before Windows lets you install this, click thru the "i agree to the 
license" dance. You already have the disk, so you're not making an 
illegal copy by installing it, so they have to get you to agree to the 
license *after* you install it and *before* it does anything you want it 
for.

[1] ... for some legal definitions of copy.

[2] the others being things like both parties have to get something out 
of it (so it's not a contract if I buy something for $0), both parties 
have to be old enough to be allowed to agree to contracts, that certain 
contracts have to be in writing, etc.

I'm still not a lawyer. Everything I say here may be completely 
inapplicable to your situation or your entire country.

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
  Helpful housekeeping hints:
   Check your feather pillows for holes
    before putting them in the washing machine.

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Darren New wrote:
> Sabrina Kilian wrote:
>  > You have the working version of the software,
>> and still have to agree to the license before using it.
> 
> It's not working before you install it and click through. That's the 
> point. You agree with the license in order to get to the login screen. 
> You can get up to the point where you read the license agreement as 
> often as you want without the seller having any ability to legally stop 
> you from doing that.
> 

I don't know where the license Invisible copied was located. If it was 
on the CD during the installer, then it's binding because you agree to 
it before the program is actually running. If it's a slip of paper, AND 
the CD installs without you clicking anything suggesting that you agree 
to the license, then contract law would hold trump.

Myself, I would probably email the software creator and ask them 
something along the lines of 'WTF is up with this license?' and continue 
to use the software I paid for. But, companies are strange critters with 
their own team of lawyers, and it's probably safer if it's being used on 
the job to turn over the license to them and let them handle things.

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On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 17:19:19 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> Not because of the license, but because the downloading itself is
> illegal.

Depends on where you download it from.  If you download it from MSDN, 
it's perfectly legal.

Jim

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On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 09:13:48 +0100, Invisible wrote:

>>> If I decide to claim we're licenced to put the software on 13 PCs, can
>>> I prove my claim? Can the makers disprove my claim?
>> 
>> Yes, because there's a purchase history.
> 
> Not if I download another copy from their website there isn't.

If you download another copy from their website and they don't track that 
sort of thing, I'd be surprised.  But if they didn't track it, then shame 
on them.

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> Depends on where you download it from.  If you download it from MSDN, 
> it's perfectly legal.

If you can download it from MSDN, you've already agreed to the license 
when you signed up for MSDN.

It really is pretty simple. :-)

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
  Helpful housekeeping hints:
   Check your feather pillows for holes
    before putting them in the washing machine.

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Darren New wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Depends on where you download it from.  If you download it from MSDN, 
>> it's perfectly legal.
> 
> If you can download it from MSDN, you've already agreed to the license 
> when you signed up for MSDN.
> 
> It really is pretty simple. :-)
> 

Not true for me, anyways.

I can download XP just fine with just my campus login information 
through the local mirror. Actually, I think almost anyone could, if they 
found the mirror's address. It might block to local ISPs or VPN only, I 
stopped paying attention at some point.

Getting the license key for XP, however, requires clicking through a 
license agreement on the MSDN page. I am free to do just about anything 
with that CD image...burn it, draw pictures on the burned CDs, hang them 
from a car mirror...but until I agree to the license, both on MSDN and 
on the installer, I am not licensed to use XP.

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Sabrina Kilian wrote:
> I can download XP just fine with just my campus login information 
> through the local mirror. 

I don't follow. Are you actually going out to MSDN to get the software? 
Or has the university stored it locally, after *they* agreed to the MSDN 
licenses? I'm sure Microsoft made sure *someone* agreed to the license.

> Getting the license key for XP, however, requires clicking through a 
> license agreement on the MSDN page. 

Yep.

> I am free to do just about anything 
> with that CD image...burn it, draw pictures on the burned CDs, hang them 
> from a car mirror

Hard to say. Maybe *you* are and someone in the campus administration 
would get in trouble.

 > ...but until I agree to the license, both on MSDN and
> on the installer, I am not licensed to use XP.

Right. But *if* you could use it without clicking through the 
agreements, they couldn't impose any after the fact. That's precisely 
why they make you click thru the agreements.

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
  Helpful housekeeping hints:
   Check your feather pillows for holes
    before putting them in the washing machine.

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On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:13:04 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Depends on where you download it from.  If you download it from MSDN,
>> it's perfectly legal.
> 
> If you can download it from MSDN, you've already agreed to the license
> when you signed up for MSDN.

Actually, I don't believe I did, because I was signed up by my employer.

> It really is pretty simple. :-)

Well, yes, but the statement was that it's not legal to download the 
file.  I was just pointing out that there are circumstances where it 
is. ;-)

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:13:04 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> 
>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> Depends on where you download it from.  If you download it from MSDN,
>>> it's perfectly legal.
>> If you can download it from MSDN, you've already agreed to the license
>> when you signed up for MSDN.
> 
> Actually, I don't believe I did, because I was signed up by my employer.

The employer signed it on your behalf. They get to bind you to 
contracts, you know. :-) Technically, *you* aren't downloading it, the 
company is. You're just downloading it on behalf of the company.

>> It really is pretty simple. :-)
> 
> Well, yes, but the statement was that it's not legal to download the 
> file.  I was just pointing out that there are circumstances where it 
> is. ;-)

Sure. I thought you meant from a warez site or something. Obviously, if 
you (the company) has already agreed to and paid for the MSDN license, 
that's a different story than just randomly downloading the file.

-- 
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
  Helpful housekeeping hints:
   Check your feather pillows for holes
    before putting them in the washing machine.

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On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 20:27:18 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:13:04 -0700, Darren New wrote:
>> 
>>> Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>> Depends on where you download it from.  If you download it from MSDN,
>>>> it's perfectly legal.
>>> If you can download it from MSDN, you've already agreed to the license
>>> when you signed up for MSDN.
>> 
>> Actually, I don't believe I did, because I was signed up by my
>> employer.
> 
> The employer signed it on your behalf. They get to bind you to
> contracts, you know. :-) Technically, *you* aren't downloading it, the
> company is. You're just downloading it on behalf of the company.

Yep, that I know.

>>> It really is pretty simple. :-)
>> 
>> Well, yes, but the statement was that it's not legal to download the
>> file.  I was just pointing out that there are circumstances where it
>> is. ;-)
> 
> Sure. I thought you meant from a warez site or something. 

Nah, what would the point be, since I can download it from MS myself?

> Obviously, if
> you (the company) has already agreed to and paid for the MSDN license,
> that's a different story than just randomly downloading the file.

True, but I was taking the statement "you can't legally download it" at 
face value.

Jim

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