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Halbert wrote:
> Meaning no disrespect, but I have to disagree. Having spent years living
> with someone who had frequent psychotic episodes and turn into a very
> strange, scary, paranoid, but then would return to a completely normal
> housewiufe and mother of two the next day. I can tell you with assurance,
> that the problem isn't due to psychological trauma, guilt or any other life
> experience. It may be precipitated by an event. Episodes may be triggered.
> But the root of the problem is biochemical
> I am told that the need for meds can sometimes lessen and even go away but
> seen that when someone tries to ween themselves off the meds, bad things can
> happen. (No matter what Tom Cruise says.) I've had knives thrown at me. My
> step-daughter's bed room was destroyed.
Man, I'm so sorry for you. Do you still see her?
> But I'm sure Sam is aware of what can happen. And he is not stopping his
> meds by choice.
Right. I know I need help for this, be it chemical, therapeutic,
spiritual. I'll not be letting myself get in a bad way again. I've got
emergency procedures I can initiate if I or somebody around me thinks
I'm heading toward psychosis again. "There is safety in the presence of
council," therefore I must always surround myself with a support group,
be it familial, professional or even collegial.
> Trying to treat such a problem with things like diet and
> meditation, relaxation techniques and the like may be helpful, but relying
> on them alone is a bad choice and even dangerous.
Don't I know it! That's why I'd rather self-medicate in the absence of
prescription drugs. I figure I'll find something that works for the
long-term if I keep searching literature.
Sam
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> My $0.02 - and Sam, FWIW, I hope things start looking up for you.
Jim,
Well, today is definitely better. Not manic, but better. The medicine I
took yesterday actually helped, though it was unclear for a while
whether it would work or not. I feel more "me" than I have for several
days. Maybe I'm on the upswing. Maybe it will level out before I become
manic...
Thanks for your input~
Sam
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>> happen. (No matter what Tom Cruise says.) I've had knives thrown at me.
>> My step-daughter's bed room was destroyed.
>
> Man, I'm so sorry for you. Do you still see her?
>
I do keep in touch. I am still very concerned for her. It was a long
nightmarish time. At one point she ate about 50 phenobarbital tablits and a
bottle of wellbutrin with out even thinking about what she was doing. She
was in a coma for a few days. Actually, she is in prison right now and that
is not unrelated to her not taking her meds. A very long (but sort of
interesting) story. But she has seen better during the time she has been
supervised.
--
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Halbert wrote:
> Trying to treat such a problem with things like diet and
> meditation, relaxation techniques and the like may be helpful,
> but relying on them alone is a bad choice and even dangerous.
Considering how unhealthfully most live today, diet and exercise should
be the *first* area explored when facing a health problem. Relying on
drugs alone is the bad and dangerous choice.
It's sad and hysterical that many who smoke, eat hydrogenated fats and
sugar, and sit on their butts all day will consider mine a naive opinion.
-Shay
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On Wed, 07 May 2008 12:26:31 -0700, stbenge wrote:
> Well, today is definitely better. Not manic, but better. The medicine I
> took yesterday actually helped, though it was unclear for a while
> whether it would work or not. I feel more "me" than I have for several
> days. Maybe I'm on the upswing. Maybe it will level out before I become
> manic...
>
> Thanks for your input~
Here's hoping, Sam. Here's hoping.
Jim
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Hi Sam. Sorry I've taken so long to reply, but I've just finished a move and am
still mostly living out of boxes that still need to be unpacked. My online time
has been erratic and I just picked up on the fact that this was a "serious
issue" thread.
First, I'm very glad to hear that you are doing a bit better than when the
thread began.
Over the past few years, I've done a good bit of research into this topic for
the sake of a long time friend who has had to deal with a similar situation.
Here's a brief summary of what I've learned.
The broad generalization that "Everyone on anti-depressants would be better off
if they just stopped taking them and switched to natural remedies", is false
and dangerously so. This having been said, it is also true that many
antidepressant drugs, especially SSRIs (Selective Serotonin Re-uptake
Inhibitors) are over marketed and over prescribed to levels that make me wonder
what kind of "medication" the medicators are on. (Just high on profits I guess.)
It may be a long and difficult search, but there ARE some doctors out there who
still actually care about their patients' well-being and who are willing to
work to find a total treatment approach where only the minimum necessary amount
of pharmaceutical intervention, if any, is used. I would recommend trying again
and again as many times as necessary until you find one.
Also, I can't say enough good things about the "chicken soup" approach. For
anyone who may not be familiar with the old joke, it goes like this:
Doctor: "I prescribe chicken soup."
Patient: "Will it help?"
Doctor: "It couldn't hurt."
The point of this is that there are a number of basic things we can do to take
better care of ourselves generally that are known to often mitigate the
suffering associated with depression and anxiety. Although it's very difficult
to predict which aspects of healthy nutrition, exercise and sleep practices will
do how much good for any specific individual, collectively these practices are
going do some good and no harm. It's also not unheard of for the positive
results to be fairly dramatic. The mind and body have many ways of healing
themselves that modern science is just beginning to understand. Virtually all
of these processes work more efficiently if we don't allow ourselves to become
malnourished, exhausted, dehydrated or atrophied.
These simple things work:
(not as a replacement for medication, but as methods of supporting overall
well-being whatever one's medication status might be)
1. Ample amounts of CLEAN water. If you think your tap water is the least bit
suspect, drink distilled or filtered water.
2. Maintain a REGULAR sleep schedule. (MUCH easier said than done, I know) A
regular circadian rhythm enhances numerous critical metabolic processes
enormously.
3. Forget complicated fad diets and just adopt a strict "no junk food" policy.
(If you think it might be junk food, it IS.) If fatigue is an issue, drastically
reducing or eliminating red meat in favor of other protein sources can be a big
help. Replace "manufactured" food-like products with fresh produce to the
greatest extent practical.
4. Unless some medical issue make this problematic, do the following about
twice per day: Spend about ten minutes building up to an accelerated heart rate
where you are breathing noticeably heavier than normal, but NOT gasping for
breath. Remain active enough to maintain this heart rate for an additional
twenty to twenty-five minutes. The best particular form of exercise is the one
you most enjoy so you will actually DO it.
5. The results of serious studies on meditation are mixed. I'm pretty sure,
however, that it helps me and I proffer my personal unscientific recommendation
to give it a go if you're at all so inclined.
Given that my own "spiritual orientation" is that of a
"Thank-God-I'm-an-Atheist" Eclectic Ironicist (basically, we believe that "true
spirituality" - if there even *IS* such a thing - has much to do with treating
other people decently and nothing to do with preaching at them), I'm probably
profoundly unqualified to introduce this subject, BUT... statistically, many
people who report having done well in their struggle against depression and
anxiety credit support from a social group that shares their spiritual and/or
philosophical outlook as being largely responsible for their success.
Finally, I'm sure that you already know, despite our society's prejudices to the
contrary, that depression is a medical condition that does not detract from the
inherent worth of a sentient individual and more than does diabetes or asthma.
I'll bet, however, that it doesn't hurt to hear someone else say it once in a
while.
Please keep in touch.
Best Regards,
Mike C.
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On Wed, 07 May 2008 15:03:21 -0500, Shay <sha### [at] none none> wrote:
>
>It's sad and hysterical that many who smoke, eat hydrogenated fats and
>sugar, and sit on their butts all day will consider mine a naive opinion.
True but sadly true :)
--
Regards
Stephen
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> Bruno Cabasson wrote:
>> Well, Sam, I do not want to appear as I am not, and I absolutely do not
>> want to make 2-pence philosophy.
>> But as a father, I tried to grow my kids with what I am and with what
>> I have, despite my separation with they mother (so usual today).
>> As a man, I entered the buddhist Dharma because I find myself close to
>> this approach and its ways in helping people to meet their 'humanness'.
>> This goes through the path of searching for myself.
>> As a sophrologist, I made a commitment towards myself and others,
>> learning some techniques related to body and soul.
>> Everybody carries more answers in himself than he is accustomed to
>> think (educated to?). This foolish world that surrounds us facilitates
>> fear and negativeness, in some circumstances raises them into a cult,
>> because some people of poor soul need our power in order to prevent
>> themself from searching their own. They use guilt and focus on other's
>> failures to hide theirs.
>
> I respect and admire all beliefs which produce loving people. I think
> all beliefs hold a bit of truth.
>
>> What is your main feeling: guilt? fear of any kind? negative sight on
>> yourself? on the world? hopelessness? loneliness? whatever ...
>
> Guilt? Once, perhaps. Now, it's this fear of losing my mind and heart.
> Sometimes I feel not quite here, like my heart and spirit has been
> destroyed. Today I feel quite ok. I populate my head like I should, but
> this feeling comes and goes.
>
>> My opinion is that chemical prison is mainly a sign of medicine's
>> failure, not yours, rejecting things upon the patients. By making the
>> patient 'escape' chemically, they escape from something they do not
>> master. They do not like not to master things. Pills can help escape
>> from a vicious circle, or rest for a while from a dificult situation,
>> or open a temporary window, in order to allow some other kind of action.
>> In fact, taking pills cannot be much considered as an 'action'. They
>> are rather likely to keep the situation as it is (or even worse),
>> leading also to chemical over-dependance, generating more harm than
>> cure. However they can be necessary for long-term in some cases,
>> provided they are well chosen and dosed, and only a necessary companion
>> to the main action.
>
> That's one problem with my situation. The "main action" for me would be
> to attend groups down at mental health, but I lost my driver's license
> and probably won't be allowed to drive ever again. I'm 35 miles from
> MH...
>
>> All of us here in the POV community have something in common: the
>> desire of making nice images, using our creativity the best we can, and
>> learning from others. This is a very positive attitude, no? AFAIK, you
>> made some nice images here... Creating images are a very positive
>> action.
>
> Yeah, but when you're depressed you gain no satisfaction from positive
> actions...
As strange as it could sound, this statement is partially wrong: the
correct statement would have rather been "Yeah, but when you're depressed
you FEEL you gain no satisfaction from positive actions". In the
depressive cases, you FEEL you are better only when you ARE already OK
again and recovered most of your capabilities (or a significant part of
them). BUT you get better and better, unaware of the process, until you
reach the state where you are (can be/freed enough to be) aware of it
yourself. So, positive actions are always profitable even if the subject
feels the opposite. This is a matter of perception and 'internal'
communication.
An example of such a process, using an analogy: consider a glass filled
with some water troubled with some substance. Impossible to see through.
Suppose we have some other substance, opposite to the one that troubles
the water. We drop this substance, one drop after another. The liquid
remains troubled until the one drop that makes the mix pass beyond a
threshold, and becomes clear. In chemistry there are many behaviours like
The mud can be eliminated more easily, and the water is now clear.
Most of mental and existential phenomena, including perception of all
kinds, are not 'displayed' to conciousness or only partially. Conciousness
is a small visible part of the soul. It interprets things (alas), and this
is the source of many troubles. These troubles are, in fact, not grounded
into reality. The work would consist in re-education to percption of
reality that surrounds us. The soul has another medium to express itself
(positively or negatively): the body. We enter here the psychosomatic area
of modern deseases.
However, when the patient is facing a neurological malfunction, the
problem is completely different. I guess that, here, the chemical (or
surgical) action is necessary. I also know that some neurological symptoms
can be due to electric malfunction inside the brain (e.g. parkinson
desease). But we are not really in the area of depression.
BTW, I take the occasion here to reply to someone in the thread who said
that only professionnals may say something (in substance, I don't remember
by heart). As a sophrologist, having followed the whole official course (4
years and 12 degrees), I can be considered as a professional of a part of
what we are dealing with, at least the existential part of it (I have a
professional card for this discipline). I can also change a wheel without
being a 20-year-experienced garagist, and cook an egg without being a 5
star chef.
Bruno
> ... You could even behave like a saint, but inside there is still that
> emptiness :(
>> So despite all negativity of all kinds, of any reason, it is possible
>> for anyone to make the effort to see what he is capable of, to see what
>> he already made positive, rather than choosing the ease of complaining
>> endlessly on what appears wrong or too a heavy burden. It is not that
>> easy. But it is not that difficult.
>
> You know, that line of thinking seems a lot like what Jesus taught.
>
>> Antidepressants are not the answer, and many people could do without if
>> they were properly helped and followed-up. The first help I see is to
>> help to restart the desire of helping themselves. I am not sure that
>> pills and therapists are a definitive solution. They may help you go in
>> the way, not more. The only true solution is not only in yourself, but
>> IS yourself. Whatever you think you are or are not, whatever you have
>> done or not, whatever the world is or is not.
>> Bruno
>
> It will take some time before I can take these words to the point of
> getting a job and sustaining myself in a normal way. You see, my moods
> can lead me to do very harmful things to myself, and I'd rather not flip
> out land in jail (again). I will take them to heart though, and always
> remember to redefine myself, instead of holding to an old definition.
>
> Thanks, Bruno~
>
> Sam
--
http://www.opera.com/mail/
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On Wed, 7 May 2008 16:41:53 EDT, "Mike the Elder" <nomail@nomail>
wrote:
>1. Ample amounts of CLEAN water. If you think your tap water is the least bit
>suspect, drink distilled or filtered water.
I don't normally join in these discussions, mainly because no one asks
me but I agree with everything you have said except for two things.
1. Stone soup is maybe a bit better than chicken soup IMO :)
2. And drinking water. You said "Ample amounts" which is fine and
correct but most people over do it. (again IMHO) There was a
recommendation that everyone should consume 2 litres of water a day
which has been interpreted as drink at least 2 litres of water a day.
When in fact it meant, including the water you consume during eating
fruit, veg and other food. (I'm not talking to people who live in hot
countries or do manual work and sweat or "glow" a lot (for the ladies
:)) It really distresses me seeing some people carrying and sipping
from bottles of water during the whole day. (It knocks the body's
balance out) Funnily enough most of them are fat, a sign that
something is wrong.
Call me an old Spey Wife if you like but the old ways are the best.
Sam, keep the faith and if you can be strong you will come through the
bad times :)
--
Regards
Stephen
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I am entirely with you! Your argument is well structured and tells what I
consider to be the truth. Bravo Mike!
Bruno
> Hi Sam. Sorry I've taken so long to reply, but I've just finished a
> move and am
> still mostly living out of boxes that still need to be unpacked. My
> online time
> has been erratic and I just picked up on the fact that this was a
> "serious
> issue" thread.
>
> First, I'm very glad to hear that you are doing a bit better than when
> the
> thread began.
>
> Over the past few years, I've done a good bit of research into this
> topic for
> the sake of a long time friend who has had to deal with a similar
> situation.
> Here's a brief summary of what I've learned.
>
> The broad generalization that "Everyone on anti-depressants would be
> better off
> if they just stopped taking them and switched to natural remedies", is
> false
> and dangerously so. This having been said, it is also true that many
> antidepressant drugs, especially SSRIs (Selective Serotonin Re-uptake
> Inhibitors) are over marketed and over prescribed to levels that make me
> wonder
> what kind of "medication" the medicators are on. (Just high on profits I
> guess.)
>
> It may be a long and difficult search, but there ARE some doctors out
> there who
> still actually care about their patients' well-being and who are willing
> to
> work to find a total treatment approach where only the minimum necessary
> amount
> of pharmaceutical intervention, if any, is used. I would recommend
> trying again
> and again as many times as necessary until you find one.
>
> Also, I can't say enough good things about the "chicken soup" approach.
> For
> anyone who may not be familiar with the old joke, it goes like this:
>
> Doctor: "I prescribe chicken soup."
> Patient: "Will it help?"
> Doctor: "It couldn't hurt."
>
> The point of this is that there are a number of basic things we can do
> to take
> better care of ourselves generally that are known to often mitigate the
> suffering associated with depression and anxiety. Although it's very
> difficult
> to predict which aspects of healthy nutrition, exercise and sleep
> practices will
> do how much good for any specific individual, collectively these
> practices are
> going do some good and no harm. It's also not unheard of for the
> positive
> results to be fairly dramatic. The mind and body have many ways of
> healing
> themselves that modern science is just beginning to understand.
> Virtually all
> of these processes work more efficiently if we don't allow ourselves to
> become
> malnourished, exhausted, dehydrated or atrophied.
>
> These simple things work:
> (not as a replacement for medication, but as methods of supporting
> overall
> well-being whatever one's medication status might be)
>
> 1. Ample amounts of CLEAN water. If you think your tap water is the
> least bit
> suspect, drink distilled or filtered water.
>
> 2. Maintain a REGULAR sleep schedule. (MUCH easier said than done, I
> know) A
> regular circadian rhythm enhances numerous critical metabolic processes
> enormously.
>
> 3. Forget complicated fad diets and just adopt a strict "no junk food"
> policy.
> (If you think it might be junk food, it IS.) If fatigue is an issue,
> drastically
> reducing or eliminating red meat in favor of other protein sources can
> be a big
> help. Replace "manufactured" food-like products with fresh produce to the
> greatest extent practical.
>
> 4. Unless some medical issue make this problematic, do the following
> about
> twice per day: Spend about ten minutes building up to an accelerated
> heart rate
> where you are breathing noticeably heavier than normal, but NOT gasping
> for
> breath. Remain active enough to maintain this heart rate for an
> additional
> twenty to twenty-five minutes. The best particular form of exercise is
> the one
> you most enjoy so you will actually DO it.
>
> 5. The results of serious studies on meditation are mixed. I'm pretty
> sure,
> however, that it helps me and I proffer my personal unscientific
> recommendation
> to give it a go if you're at all so inclined.
>
> Given that my own "spiritual orientation" is that of a
> "Thank-God-I'm-an-Atheist" Eclectic Ironicist (basically, we believe
> that "true
> spirituality" - if there even *IS* such a thing - has much to do with
> treating
> other people decently and nothing to do with preaching at them), I'm
> probably
> profoundly unqualified to introduce this subject, BUT... statistically,
> many
> people who report having done well in their struggle against depression
> and
> anxiety credit support from a social group that shares their spiritual
> and/or
> philosophical outlook as being largely responsible for their success.
>
> Finally, I'm sure that you already know, despite our society's
> prejudices to the
> contrary, that depression is a medical condition that does not detract
> from the
> inherent worth of a sentient individual and more than does diabetes or
> asthma.
> I'll bet, however, that it doesn't hurt to hear someone else say it once
> in a
> while.
>
> Please keep in touch.
>
> Best Regards,
> Mike C.
>
--
http://www.opera.com/mail/
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