"Stephen" <mcavoysAT@aolDOTcom> wrote in message
news:qlm7u3lr5ovt1v54g35cfjkirjikv4soks@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 17:42:53 +0200, "Gail Shaw"
> <initialsurname@sentech sa dot com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Think of it this way. If you have 2 pans of water, same volume, one's
just
> >above freezing point (0C) and one at boiling point (100C). Can you use
the
> >pan of boiling water to bring the second pan up to boiling point?
> >
>
> Maxwell's demon could :)

Maxwell's demon ignores the 2nd law of thermodynamics. That was the whole
point. It also assumes that it can find individual molecules, which may be
difficult with the quantum effects that small.

> >Similar thing, just with heat, instead of springs
>
> Doesn't that mean the universe will suffer when Entropy increases?

Sure. It's not a new observation. The 2nd law of Thermodynamics predics the
heat death of the universe. Entropy increases to the point where all systems
are at their least ordered and no energy can ever be extracted from any
system. The entire universe is at a steady temerature and no more change is
possible. Basically, the universe winds down.

> You've just proved his point. And if he was right about that then
> maybe the Perpetual Motion Machine is possible after all!

The second statement does not follow the first. And physics is very bad at
prediciting aspects of society. Will leave that to any sociaologists.

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On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 16:31:03 -0000, "St." <dot### [at] dotcom> wrote:

>Btw, literally just found this - the author is either psychic, or he knows 
>what he's taliking about. Note the date. It's a good read.
>
>     http://www.usagold.com/contests/june2004.html
>
>

That sounds like it was written for the Gaia movement, the SF post
disaster stories, from the sixties onwards. Have you read anything by
John Brunner?
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 18:46:34 +0200, "Gail Shaw"
<initialsurname@sentech sa dot com> wrote:

>
>The second statement does not follow the first. And physics is very bad at
>prediciting aspects of society. Will leave that to any sociaologists.
>

I know this I was reducing to the absurd for the sake of humour. 

I must remember to sprinkle a few more smilies about.  
I must remember to sprinkle a few more smilies about.  
I must remember to sprinkle a few more smilies about.  
I must remember to sprinkle a few more smilies about.  
...

Oh! And if Maxwell's demon wants to ignore the 2nd law well that's up
to him or her, whatever  :)
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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"Stephen" <mcavoysAT@aolDOTcom> wrote in message 
news:fip7u3ddgu8fb2j9ff40lr7jp5uis9idhq@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 16:31:03 -0000, "St." <dot### [at] dotcom> wrote:
>
>>Btw, literally just found this - the author is either psychic, or he knows
>>what he's taliking about. Note the date. It's a good read.
>>
>>     http://www.usagold.com/contests/june2004.html
>>
>>
>
> That sounds like it was written for the Gaia movement, the SF post
> disaster stories, from the sixties onwards. Have you read anything by
> John Brunner?

     No, but the name rings a bell. Is that the kind of writing he was/is 
good at?

      Presently, I've just started reading "The Vang: The Military Form" by 
Christopher Rowley. Seems to be good so far.

      ~Steve~


> -- 
>
> Regards
>     Stephen

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Gail Shaw wrote:
> What you have there is a perpetual motion machine. Physically impossible

Not necessarily. But highly improbable at the macroscopic level.

Apparently there are some quantum effects ("zero energy point") that 
could actually maybe be used for this sort of thing. I didn't believe it 
until a theoretical physicist told me yeah, maybe you could, because 
thermodynamics doesn't apply to virtual particles.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     "That's pretty. Where's that?"
          "It's the Age of Channelwood."
     "We should go there on vacation some time."

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Gail Shaw wrote:
> It's no more possible than travelling faster than light or creating matter
> out of thin air. In fact, it's less possible than both of those (which
> theoretically do occur under strange circumstances)

Actually, they both occur all the time everywhere. :-)

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     "That's pretty. Where's that?"
          "It's the Age of Channelwood."
     "We should go there on vacation some time."

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On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 16:57:44 -0000, "St." <dot### [at] dotcom> wrote:

>     No, but the name rings a bell. Is that the kind of writing he was/is 
>good at?
>

Actually no, he wrote about the oil and natural sources not quite
running out. As in "Stand on Zanzibar" 1968 is about over population,
The Jagged Orbit (1969), The Sheep Look Up (1972) and The Shockwave
Rider (1975). His most well known ones. He died in Glasgow in 1995 at
a World Science Fiction Convention. 

I can't remember the writers who I've read, that dealt with the oil
and water running out but I get the impression that they were mostly
West Coast American writers. 

>      Presently, I've just started reading "The Vang: The Military Form" by 
>Christopher Rowley. Seems to be good so far.

I can't say that I've read any of his. To tell the truth the name puts
me off :) I'm reading one of the "Monster Books" of SF. I've ran out
of books in the library. That is somewhere that is feeling the pinch.
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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"St." <dot### [at] dotcom> wrote:
>    The factory produces a clockwork 'engine' with two pre-wound springs in
> the car. You go buy it, and drive it off the forecourt. As you drive it,
> only one spring drives the car, and when that spring winds down enough not
> to work effectively, the other one kicks in to continue the journey. Here's
> the good bit: As the second spring is driving you forward, it re-winds the
> first spring, so this would work in such a way that they would forever be
> swapping over and eliminating any hands on winding up.

oh, a perpetual winding machine! ;)

Take your tea, St.  Even if the world comes to a halt, we still get a fully
working and well routed internet and this newsgroups for entertainment and tips
on where to get food.  Just be sure no one kills you for your PC. :P

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"Darren New" <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote in message
news:47e3ee74@news.povray.org...
> Gail Shaw wrote:
> > It's no more possible than travelling faster than light or creating
matter
> > out of thin air. In fact, it's less possible than both of those (which
> > theoretically do occur under strange circumstances)
>
> Actually, they both occur all the time everywhere. :-)

Has someone seen tacheons? I admit, I'm a bit behind on some of the lit.
Matter out of thin space happens, but since they're virtual particles that
disintegrate (and turn back into the photons that created them) in a
fraction of a nanosecond, it's not really a factor. Unless you have a black
hole nearby, that is. Or are you talking about zero-point energy?

I was trying to leave quantum out of this. Thermodynamics alone are bad
enough. :-)

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"Darren New" <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote in message
news:47e3ee39@news.povray.org...
> Gail Shaw wrote:
> > What you have there is a perpetual motion machine. Physically impossible
>
> Not necessarily. But highly improbable at the macroscopic level.
>
> Apparently there are some quantum effects ("zero energy point") that
> could actually maybe be used for this sort of thing. I didn't believe it
> until a theoretical physicist told me yeah, maybe you could, because
> thermodynamics doesn't apply to virtual particles.

I've read some of the discussions. Thing with the virtual particles - how do
you make them real. Only way I know of is a black hole, and they don't make
good pets.

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