Warp escribió:
> MS had to rename their version of the language "J++")
> 

I think it's actually J#.

>   I don't even care if C# is a thousand times better than Java. I hate
> it by principle and by extreme prejudice, and I'm not ashamed to admit it.
> 

I know Java, and use it sometimes. I don't know C# and refuse to get 
anywhere close to .NET

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Nicolas Alvarez wrote:
> Warp escribió:
>> MS had to rename their version of the language "J++")
>>
> 
> I think it's actually J#.

No, I think J++ and J# are seperate languages. J++ is M$'s non-compliant 
"Java" VM, whereas J# is a Java-like language for the .NET framework.

> I know Java, and use it sometimes. I don't know C# and refuse to get 
> anywhere close to .NET

Likewise.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Nicolas Alvarez <nic### [at] gmailisthebestcom> wrote:
> I know Java, and use it sometimes. I don't know C# and refuse to get 
> anywhere close to .NET

  What's wrong with .NET?

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Warp escribió:
> Nicolas Alvarez <nic### [at] gmailisthebestcom> wrote:
>> I know Java, and use it sometimes. I don't know C# and refuse to get 
>> anywhere close to .NET
> 
>   What's wrong with .NET?
> 

It's from Microsoft...?

Principle and extreme prejudice, I guess.

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Nicolas Alvarez <nic### [at] gmailisthebestcom> wrote:

> > Nicolas Alvarez <nic### [at] gmailisthebestcom> wrote:
> >> I know Java, and use it sometimes. I don't know C# and refuse to get 
> >> anywhere close to .NET
> > 
> >   What's wrong with .NET?
> > 

> It's from Microsoft...?

> Principle and extreme prejudice, I guess.

  Not *everything* from Microsoft is that bad. I just detest C# because
of the reason why the developed it.

  However, the little I have heard about .NET, it doesn't sound
all that bad. If I'm not mistaken, it makes it easy to develop
language-independent modules (for example, you could develop a
library module in C++, ASP, C# or probably even Java, and use it
in any of the other languages at will). I might have understood
wrongly what .NET is about, though.

  Perhaps a bit surprisingly, Microsoft even has some open-source
projects, under OSI-compliant licenses. For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Template_Library

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Warp escribió:
> Nicolas Alvarez <nic### [at] gmailisthebestcom> wrote:
>> Warp escribi�:
>>> Nicolas Alvarez <nic### [at] gmailisthebestcom> wrote:
>>>> I know Java, and use it sometimes. I don't know C# and refuse to get 
>>>> anywhere close to .NET
>>>   What's wrong with .NET?
>>>
> 
>> It's from Microsoft...?
> 
>> Principle and extreme prejudice, I guess.
> 
>   Not *everything* from Microsoft is that bad.

I know. I didn't say everything from Microsoft is bad. So? That won't 
make me use .NET.

I once saw a website of some guy increasing his ego by claiming he could 
do one application a day, in .NET (probably C#). And indeed he could, 
and finished saying "can you do THIS in your programming language?". 
Well I hope I can't. Even the most silly apps used at least 40MB of 
memory. That little thing is one more point against .NET in my mind.

>   Perhaps a bit surprisingly, Microsoft even has some open-source
> projects, under OSI-compliant licenses. For example:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Template_Library

I know. There's also WiX, a free toolset to make MSI-based installers 
from XML configuration files. Released under the Common Public License.

And probably many others.

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Warp wrote:

>   However, the little I have heard about .NET, it doesn't sound
> all that bad.

The install binary is pretty vast though... :-S

> If I'm not mistaken, it makes it easy to develop
> language-independent modules (for example, you could develop a
> library module in C++, ASP, C# or probably even Java, and use it
> in any of the other languages at will). I might have understood
> wrongly what .NET is about, though.

That's the general impression I got too...

>   Perhaps a bit surprisingly, Microsoft even has some open-source
> projects, under OSI-compliant licenses. For example:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Template_Library

Apparently it doesn't provide everything that the closed-source version 
does. (I.e. part of the class library isn't there.) However, without 
having a detailed understanding of what the CS version provides and what 
isn't in the OS version, it's hard to make an intelligent comment about 
how significant that is.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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Invisible wrote:
> ....so they implemented Java's flawed MI-but-not-MI model? How is that 
> fixing the flaws from other major programming languages?

Probably fixing what they saw as flawed MI in C++. :-)

Me, I like the Common Lisp object system.

> Ever tried to use multiple inheritance in Eiffel?

I used Eiffel a bit. I kind of gave it up when the compiler for this 
language which is supposed to support extreme correctness couldn't 
compile the hello world program that was the skeleton project the IDE 
created for you when you start a new project.

> Since I am presumably the only person here who has ever heard of Eiffel, let me go
over it.

Nah. I used it for a bit.

> Suppose that class A inherits from classes B and C, which themselves inherit from D.
Suppose that D defines an attribute called, say, banana. That means that B and C each
have a copy of banana. In A, these two copies are automatically merged by default.
> Alternatively, you can rename one (or both) copies to something else. 

Did they ever actually implement this? It's how it's *supposed* to work, 
but never did, IME.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     On what day did God create the body thetans?

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Warp wrote:
>  Why not disallow diamond inheritance? 

Technically, you can't, since there's a common base type for all objects 
in those languages.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     On what day did God create the body thetans?

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Darren New wrote:
> Invisible wrote:
>> ....so they implemented Java's flawed MI-but-not-MI model? How is that 
>> fixing the flaws from other major programming languages?
> 
> Probably fixing what they saw as flawed MI in C++. :-)

Hmm, yeeeeessss.......

> Me, I like the Common Lisp object system.

Me, I dislike anything that says "Lisp" in it. :-S

>> Ever tried to use multiple inheritance in Eiffel?
> 
> I used Eiffel a bit. I kind of gave it up when the compiler for this 
> language which is supposed to support extreme correctness couldn't 
> compile the hello world program that was the skeleton project the IDE 
> created for you when you start a new project.

I gave up when the language libraries were so obviously stupid...

>> Since I am presumably the only person here who has ever heard of 
>> Eiffel, let me go over it.
> 
> Nah. I used it for a bit.

That's a miracle. It's a pretty rare language...

>> Suppose that class A inherits from classes B and C, which themselves 
>> inherit from D. Suppose that D defines an attribute called, say, 
>> banana. That means that B and C each have a copy of banana. In A, 
>> these two copies are automatically merged by default.
>> Alternatively, you can rename one (or both) copies to something else. 
> 
> Did they ever actually implement this? It's how it's *supposed* to work, 
> but never did, IME.

Didn't try it personally, no. But that's what the language spec says. 
(IIRC it's an ISO standard now or something?)

Note that Eiffel Studio isn't the only implementation. There's Smart 
Eiffel (AKA Small Eiffel) that reguarly does quite well in the language 
shootout benchmarks... But either way, the libraries are very poor.

[E.g., Eiffel provides strong generics support with a whole heap of 
infrastructure to support writing really generic code. So they designed 
one class for character I/O, and a completely unrelated one for binary 
I/O. GAH! >_< Why?!]

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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