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On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 21:19:23 +0000, Stephen wrote:
> On 6 Feb 2008 15:45:07 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>
>
>>I know what you mean. While we haven't seen as deep a decline in
>>manufacturing over here, there has been a pretty steep decline anyways -
>>after all, look at all the toys painted with lead-based paints coming
>>out of China to the US....
>
> Well that's what happens with globalisation. Everything goes to the
> cheapest. B*gg*r the quality. :(
> Remember the Tolpuddle Martyrs!
Heh, true enough. But the other thing that *should* happen with
globalisation is that the expertise moves up - so as more rote jobs are
shipped overseas, the former workers have to learn new skills.
Nobody ever said that life was easy or that continued employment didn't
require the acquisition of new skills. It's a sad reality for those who
don't adapt to the changing employment scene, but those who do tend to do
a lot better than those who don't.
My dad's generation stayed employed by one employer for most of their
lives (dad worked for Massey-Ferguson for something like 50 years before
he retired in '81). Those days are pretty much long past (though I work
on a team with people who've been with the company for 15-20 years).
Most people also can expect to go through 3-5 total career changes these
days as well. I'm on #3 myself - went from implementing/fixing
technology to teaching it to managing those who teach it. I never
thought I'd move out of implementing.
Jim
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On 6 Feb 2008 16:24:44 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>
>Heh, true enough. But the other thing that *should* happen with
>globalisation is that the expertise moves up - so as more rote jobs are
>shipped overseas, the former workers have to learn new skills.
>Nobody ever said that life was easy or that continued employment didn't
>require the acquisition of new skills. It's a sad reality for those who
>don't adapt to the changing employment scene, but those who do tend to do
>a lot better than those who don't.
>
>My dad's generation stayed employed by one employer for most of their
>lives (dad worked for Massey-Ferguson for something like 50 years before
>he retired in '81). Those days are pretty much long past (though I work
>on a team with people who've been with the company for 15-20 years).
>Most people also can expect to go through 3-5 total career changes these
>days as well. I'm on #3 myself - went from implementing/fixing
>technology to teaching it to managing those who teach it. I never
>thought I'd move out of implementing.
Yes but what do you do with the millions of people that were needed for
manufacturing and keeping the system going before automation and cheap
transport. That's the problem or at least one of them.
Not everyone has the opportunity to re-skill and move up. I'm on career #4;
worked in factories, became a service engineer, worked offshore, now in SAP.
But then I'm a chancer :)
I can't believe I've had three interviews this week for jobs that would take me
completely round the world. And one later in the week to work in Malaysia. That
is a far cry from my father who only went abroad in the war. :)
Regards
Stephen
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On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 21:45:19 +0000, Stephen <mcavoysATaolDOTcom@> wrote:
>I can't believe I've had three interviews this week
And one of the interviewers had used Pov!
What is that handshake again? :)
Regards
Stephen
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On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 21:45:19 +0000, Stephen wrote:
> Yes but what do you do with the millions of people that were needed for
> manufacturing and keeping the system going before automation and cheap
> transport.
That can be a tricky one, especially early in the cycle. I tend to think
that *most* can re-skill and move up, or move sideways into a somewhat
similar position in a different industry.
Those who tend to be successful, I think, tend to be people who instead
of learning "how to build a paint sprayer", but rather how to follow
instructions on how to build something.
From there, one possible career path is process optimization, which can
open a bunch of other doors as well.
> That's the problem or at least one of them. Not everyone has
> the opportunity to re-skill and move up.
At least in my experience, the opportunities are there, but the
motivation often isn't. Of course, it's not 100% who have the
opportunities (or don't have the motivation). A big problem also has to
do with people living beyond their means; when you do that, you can't
take a lower paying job while you are re-skilling.
When I moved into instruction, I took about a 7% pay cut (in base
salary), and it was a struggle for a while. After 5 years, I'm back
where I was when I left the previous employer; but I'm also described as
"unamerican" by some because I don't carry a lot of debt load and
generally we only buy what we can afford right now (excepting big-ticket
items like cars, houses, and that sort of thing). Credit management is a
skill that it seems a lot of younger people don't have these days - even
in my generation, debt loads tend to be higher than our parents' were,
and we learned about credit management later in life than we really
should have.
> I'm on career #4; worked in
> factories, became a service engineer, worked offshore, now in SAP. But
> then I'm a chancer
Same here. The director I worked for 6 years ago (when I left to come to
Novell) said that he wished he had the guts to make a drastic change like
I did. I think he was also commenting on my choice of employer as well;
Novell has long been known as a company that you're likely to get laid
off from. I've survived 3 or 4 RIFs in 5 years, the first one a month
after I started.
> I can't believe I've had three interviews this week for jobs that would
> take me completely round the world. And one later in the week to work in
> Malaysia. That is a far cry from my father who only went abroad in the
> war.
Wow, that's impressive. :-)
Jim
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On 6 Feb 2008 17:02:53 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>Those who tend to be successful, I think, tend to be people who instead
>of learning "how to build a paint sprayer", but rather how to follow
>instructions on how to build something.
That is dispiriting.
>From there, one possible career path is process optimization, which can
>open a bunch of other doors as well.
>
>> That's the problem or at least one of them. Not everyone has
>> the opportunity to re-skill and move up.
>
>At least in my experience, the opportunities are there, but the
>motivation often isn't. Of course, it's not 100% who have the
>opportunities (or don't have the motivation).
I saw it differently here when Mrs T started to go the way she did. (I won't go
into that. It is an old story and you shouldn't talk politics or religion if you
want to keep friends. Oh what the Hell I can't keep my mouth shut :)
>A big problem also has to
>do with people living beyond their means; when you do that, you can't
>take a lower paying job while you are re-skilling.
How very true. Debt is a major problem here in the UK.
>When I moved into instruction, I took about a 7% pay cut (in base
>salary), and it was a struggle for a while. After 5 years, I'm back
>where I was when I left the previous employer; but I'm also described as
>"unamerican" by some because I don't carry a lot of debt load and
>generally we only buy what we can afford right now (excepting big-ticket
>items like cars, houses, and that sort of thing). Credit management is a
>skill that it seems a lot of younger people don't have these days - even
>in my generation, debt loads tend to be higher than our parents' were,
>and we learned about credit management later in life than we really
>should have.
>
It may be what brings gown the house of cards :(
>> I'm on career #4; worked in
>> factories, became a service engineer, worked offshore, now in SAP. But
>> then I'm a chancer
>
>Same here. The director I worked for 6 years ago (when I left to come to
>Novell) said that he wished he had the guts to make a drastic change like
>I did. I think he was also commenting on my choice of employer as well;
>Novell has long been known as a company that you're likely to get laid
>off from. I've survived 3 or 4 RIFs in 5 years, the first one a month
>after I started.
>
Welcome to our caring company. I won't introduce you to those people they won't
be here long. :)
Yeuch!
>> I can't believe I've had three interviews this week for jobs that would
>> take me completely round the world. And one later in the week to work in
>> Malaysia. That is a far cry from my father who only went abroad in the
>> war.
>
>Wow, that's impressive. :-)
>
Thanks I think so too that's why I'm bragging. :) Even if I don't get any of
them I'm pleased that I was considered.
Regards
Stephen
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On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 22:28:30 +0000, Stephen wrote:
> On 6 Feb 2008 17:02:53 -0500, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>
>>Those who tend to be successful, I think, tend to be people who instead
>>of learning "how to build a paint sprayer", but rather how to follow
>>instructions on how to build something.
>
> That is dispiriting.
What, that people have to evolve their skills? That's the way the world
is (at least in the so-called "western world") these days. Adapt or
die....It sounds harsh, but it's reality.
>>From there, one possible career path is process optimization, which can
>>open a bunch of other doors as well.
>>
>>> That's the problem or at least one of them. Not everyone has the
>>> opportunity to re-skill and move up.
>>
>>At least in my experience, the opportunities are there, but the
>>motivation often isn't. Of course, it's not 100% who have the
>>opportunities (or don't have the motivation).
>
> I saw it differently here when Mrs T started to go the way she did. (I
> won't go into that. It is an old story and you shouldn't talk politics
> or religion if you want to keep friends. Oh what the Hell I can't keep
> my mouth shut :)
I'm happy to talk either politics or religion. Maybe that's why I don't
have a lot of friends. ;-)
I'm having a great debate right now with someone about the relative
merits of calling Wicca a religion (he doesn't believe it is, and he's
wrong <g>) and the US armed forces holding weekly services for those who
are observant of that particular faith. Of course, his definition for
"religion" is pretty narrow - you have to believe in a monotheistic god,
which generally narrows the field to Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.
By his definition, Buddhism and Hinduism don't (and shouldn't) qualify.
Add to that his statement that belief that science can eventually explain
everything is irrational (but belief in an invisible guy in the sky who
controls everything isn't?), and you've got a conversation that's ripe
for lots of fun shouting. :-) Needless to say, *I've* been having fun
with it.
>>A big problem also has to
>>do with people living beyond their means; when you do that, you can't
>>take a lower paying job while you are re-skilling.
>
> How very true. Debt is a major problem here in the UK.
Yeah, I understand that you guys are catching the sub-prime mortgage wave
that hit us the end of last year. Don't get bitten. I also understand
that there's been an interesting development in a bank bought by Citi
over there - that they're terminating accounts for people with *good*
credit because they're not making any money on interest. Terminating
accounts for people who pay their cards off every month: What's the
world coming to?
>>When I moved into instruction, I took about a 7% pay cut (in base
>>salary), and it was a struggle for a while. After 5 years, I'm back
>>where I was when I left the previous employer; but I'm also described as
>>"unamerican" by some because I don't carry a lot of debt load and
>>generally we only buy what we can afford right now (excepting big-ticket
>>items like cars, houses, and that sort of thing). Credit management is
>>a skill that it seems a lot of younger people don't have these days -
>>even in my generation, debt loads tend to be higher than our parents'
>>were, and we learned about credit management later in life than we
>>really should have.
>>
> It may be what brings gown the house of cards :(
Yep. I have to admit that I'm concerned about my retirement fund; I was
stupid when I was in my early 20s and closed my 401(k) account so I could
make a down payment on a house. That money would, in the long run, been
much better left invested where it was. I may have another 30-35 years
of working time left before I retire, but the operation of compound
interest would've served me well with the money I put in when I was 19-22.
>>> I'm on career #4; worked in
>>> factories, became a service engineer, worked offshore, now in SAP. But
>>> then I'm a chancer
>>
>>Same here. The director I worked for 6 years ago (when I left to come
>>to Novell) said that he wished he had the guts to make a drastic change
>>like I did. I think he was also commenting on my choice of employer as
>>well; Novell has long been known as a company that you're likely to get
>>laid off from. I've survived 3 or 4 RIFs in 5 years, the first one a
>>month after I started.
>>
>>
> Welcome to our caring company. I won't introduce you to those people
> they won't be here long. :)
> Yeuch!
It can be a bit depressing at times. That said, I love the job, though,
and right now couldn't see myself doing anything else. I've always been
a bit mercenary when it comes to employment (though there are things I
*won't* do), and for the first time in my career, I'm in a place where,
if something "better" came along I probably wouldn't take it. I would
look at it, but IME "better" is always a case of appearances, and things
are pretty good where I am. I made a jump once before for "better" and
it was (work-wise) a very bad call. Life-wise, it worked out very well
(I met my wife because I moved for the job), but I was miserable for
about 2 years, and unemployed for 6 months of that.
>>> I can't believe I've had three interviews this week for jobs that
>>> would take me completely round the world. And one later in the week to
>>> work in Malaysia. That is a far cry from my father who only went
>>> abroad in the war.
>>
>>Wow, that's impressive. :-)
>>
> Thanks I think so too that's why I'm bragging. :) Even if I don't get
> any of them I'm pleased that I was considered.
That's always a good ego-boost, isn't it? Current job sent me to
Barcelona a few years ago (and actually, it was before I was in this job
- I was doing some of the job prior to moving back into the department),
and this year is looking like I'll get to at least go to Europe (probably
Germany) and Australia, possibly also New Zealand and Japan (the latter
will be on my own dime to visit my brother - I figure if I'm "in the
neighborhood" I should go visit him in Osaka).
I really enjoy travel - the actual "getting there" bit isn't a lot of
fun, but once I'm there, I like to get out and see things.
Jim
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>> I'm currently working on a radio system for Ford, where most of the core
>> components are made in Japan, assembled in either China or Taiwan, then
>> moved to Mexico to assemble into the complete radio unit, then moved to
>> some Chrysler plant somewhere to be assembled into the car. Madness
>> isn't it?
>
> You know what? Screw light bulbs - THIS is the thing we need to fix to
> stop global warming! ._.
Agreed - but unfortunately people would rather pay 10% less for something
that has been shipped all round the world to make it as cheap as possible.
Until that changes, or they introduce some huge global tax on shipping, the
situation is going to stay.
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scott wrote:
>> You know what? Screw light bulbs - THIS is the thing we need to fix to
>> stop global warming! ._.
>
> Agreed - but unfortunately people would rather pay 10% less for
> something that has been shipped all round the world to make it as cheap
> as possible. Until that changes, or they introduce some huge global tax
> on shipping, the situation is going to stay.
As far as I can tell, the problem is that it's cheaper to make stuff in
some distant country than to make it right here. When that changes, the
problem should go away...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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> As far as I can tell, the problem is that it's cheaper to make stuff in
> some distant country than to make it right here. When that changes, the
> problem should go away...
I don't think it will ever be the case that it costs the same to make
something in every country on Earth...
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And lo on Wed, 06 Feb 2008 18:45:08 -0000, Fredrik Eriksson
<fe79}--at--{yahoo}--dot--{com> did spake, saying:
> On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 14:56:50 +0100, scott <sco### [at] laptopcom> wrote:
>> Actually you would need a gearbox for it to be useful. Electric motors
>> generate maximum torque at very slow speeds, the faster the motor goes
>> the lower the torque. This is exactly the wrong thing you need for a
>> car, where the faster you go the more torque you need to overcome the
>> speed squared air drag. If you didn't use a gearbox you'd end up with
>> a car capable of burning out the tyres at low speed, but that took 10
>> minutes to accelerate from 60 to 70 mph.
>
> http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/acceleration_and_torque.php
>
> Gets by with only two gears, and can supposedly be kept in second gear
> at all times while still performing adequately.
How amusing - assembled in the UK yet you can't buy one here.
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
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