On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 08:57:31 -0800, Darren New wrote:

> I don't know where "over here" is, but my experience in the USA is that
> most of the technical *and marketing* people here have poor grammatical
> and writing skills.

I have had a similar experience; it's amazing how many marketing people 
(in particular) can't spell or write a sentence that makes any sense.

Jim

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Rune wrote:
> I have the same problem.
> 
> My written English is quite good, but my spoken English is very bad because 
> I've never practised it intensively, like I have with my written English.
> 
> I'm under an everyday illusion that I understand spoken English fine. Here 
> in Denmark we don't have voice overs for foreign movies and TV and while 
> there *are* subtitles, the simultaneous exposure to the original language 
> still works as practice, to the point that many people will notice if the 
> words have been translated in an counterintuitive way. If subtitles are 
> missing, I can still understand 98% of what is said just fine. However, my 
> guess is that I don't understand native English speakers very well at all. 
> At least, that's what happened when I was in England many years ago. While 
> you normally don't notice it, spoken English in movies is *far* better 
> pronounced that how people talk in real life.
> 
> This is my biggest fear when I'm going to the Game Developers Conference in 
> San Francisco in two weeks time: That I'll find myself utterly unable to 
> understand what most people are saying except if they speak slow and clearly 
> to me, and that I'll sound like I'm bad at communicating due to lack of 
> practise with speaking the language...
> 
Let me reassure you, you won't be able to understand most of it. Mainly 
because the majority will be freshly imported Asians with 1 or 2 years 
of experience in pronunciation in an environment of mostly non native 
Americans.

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> It also helps tremendously if you have someone who *is* a native speaker 
> actively helping you out, pointing out your mispronunciations and odd 
> word choices and such, methinks. At least, that's my experience.

  That's one HUGE problem, though. People are way too "polite" to comment
on your mistakes, even if it would benefit you a lot if the did.

  I have had more than one experience related to this just in writing.
I have written something consistently in the wrong way for *years* before
someone *finally* commented that it's wrong, after which I started writing
it correctly. In each case it exasperated me why nobody had said it to me
before. I can't know if I write something in the wrong way if nobody tells me.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Warp wrote:
> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>> It also helps tremendously if you have someone who *is* a native speaker 
>> actively helping you out, pointing out your mispronunciations and odd 
>> word choices and such, methinks. At least, that's my experience.
> 
>   That's one HUGE problem, though. People are way too "polite" to comment
> on your mistakes, even if it would benefit you a lot if the did.

Yes. That's why I said they have to be actively helping out. For 
example, I spent about a week teaching my chinese now-wife the 
difference between "L" and "R" when we were first going out. We still 
joke about it, and she still occasionally calls me from work to find out 
what the right preposition to use in some sentence is. (Prepositions in 
English are completely random, as far as I can tell.)

A random stranger isn't going to take the time. If you wind up in a 
country with people who speak English well (not necessarily England or 
the USA, mind), and you wind up staying with someone at their house 
instead of in a hotel, say, asking the person to correct your english 
mistakes would definitely improve your skills much faster than waiting 
for strangers to volunteer it.

>   I have had more than one experience related to this just in writing.
> I have written something consistently in the wrong way for *years* before
> someone *finally* commented that it's wrong, after which I started writing
> it correctly. In each case it exasperated me why nobody had said it to me
> before. I can't know if I write something in the wrong way if nobody tells me.

Last night: "Why does my outlook always put the red squiggles under the 
word yestoday?"    "Because it's misspelled."   "I've been spelling it 
wrong for 20 years?"   "Seems that way."

Yeah, it happens. Your writing is virtually flawless to my eye. I don't 
even stumble over it as much as I have to re-read a lot of native 
english text I see.  I wish I could learn even a simple foreign language 
half as well as you've mastered english.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     On what day did God create the body thetans?

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On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 04:04:22 -0500, Warp wrote:

> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>> It also helps tremendously if you have someone who *is* a native
>> speaker actively helping you out, pointing out your mispronunciations
>> and odd word choices and such, methinks. At least, that's my
>> experience.
> 
>   That's one HUGE problem, though. People are way too "polite" to
>   comment
> on your mistakes, even if it would benefit you a lot if the did.
> 
>   I have had more than one experience related to this just in writing.
> I have written something consistently in the wrong way for *years*
> before someone *finally* commented that it's wrong, after which I
> started writing it correctly. In each case it exasperated me why nobody
> had said it to me before. I can't know if I write something in the wrong
> way if nobody tells me.

I've got a friend in Luxembourg who is in a similar situation; his 
written English is really good; but spoken, he's got a very thick accent 
and has to search for words and sometimes he finds the wrong word.

A few years ago, he started asking people to help him if he was saying 
things incorrectly - of course, the group we hang out in includes a 
couple of English pedants (language and nationality, come to think of 
it), so they're all too happy to help. :-)

The thing is, a lot of times you write things in ways that are 
understandable (so not incorrect), but somewhat convoluted.  For example, 
your last sentence here:

"I can't know if I write something in the wrong way if nobody tells me."

I find that perfectly clear, but an odd way of expressing the thought 
you're having.  What you're saying is "I can't know if I've written 
something incorrectly unless someone tells me".  Same meaning as what you 
wrote.  "In the wrong way" isn't something that most English speakers/
writers would use (at least not in my experience).  "Incorrectly" would 
be the word used instead.

Jim

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> I find that perfectly clear, but an odd way of expressing the thought 
> you're having. 

My wife already had a Masters in Computer Science before coming to the 
USA, and she learned a lot of English by studying the GREs. Early on, 
one day, she leaned over to me and said "Look at the sweater of the man 
with the sparsely distributed hair."   "The word is 'bald'."  "Oh, OK."

Just today, it was "do you need help to hoist the bicycle back onto the 
rack?" Perfectly correct, but way too sophisticated/educated a choice of 
words, at the same time.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     On what day did God create the body thetans?

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On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 19:37:31 -0800, Darren New wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> I find that perfectly clear, but an odd way of expressing the thought
>> you're having.
> 
> My wife already had a Masters in Computer Science before coming to the
> USA, and she learned a lot of English by studying the GREs. Early on,
> one day, she leaned over to me and said "Look at the sweater of the man
> with the sparsely distributed hair."   "The word is 'bald'."  "Oh, OK."
> 
> Just today, it was "do you need help to hoist the bicycle back onto the
> rack?" Perfectly correct, but way too sophisticated/educated a choice of
> words, at the same time.

Yep - I have a few friends who are of Chinese/Taiwanese origins, and they 
also express things in this manner as well.

I'm sure my Spanish is, comparatively speaking, much worse. ;-)

Jim

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> USA, and she learned a lot of English by studying the GREs. Early on, 
> one day, she leaned over to me and said "Look at the sweater of the man 
> with the sparsely distributed hair."   "The word is 'bald'."  "Oh, OK."

  Perhaps she was just being politically correct? ;)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Darren New wrote:
> My wife already had a Masters in Computer Science before coming to the
> USA, and she learned a lot of English by studying the GREs. Early on,
> one day, she leaned over to me and said "Look at the sweater of the man
> with the sparsely distributed hair."   "The word is 'bald'."  "Oh, OK."

	Don't exclude the possibility that she was being technical (I take it
she was in a PhD program once if she studied the GRE?). I've seen native
speakers sometimes speak that way in those circles.

	

-- 
Hard work pays off in the future. Laziness pays off now.


                    /\  /\               /\  /
                   /  \/  \ u e e n     /  \/  a w a z
                       >>>>>>mue### [at] nawazorg<<<<<<
                                   anl

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Mueen Nawaz wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> My wife already had a Masters in Computer Science before coming to the
>> USA, and she learned a lot of English by studying the GREs. Early on,
>> one day, she leaned over to me and said "Look at the sweater of the man
>> with the sparsely distributed hair."   "The word is 'bald'."  "Oh, OK."
> 
> 	Don't exclude the possibility that she was being technical

No, she just didn't know the word "bald." :-)

> (I take it she was in a PhD program once if she studied the GRE?).

Two masters and a PhD, in two completely different languages. She's awesome.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     On what day did God create the body thetans?

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