Invisible wrote:
> If you write stuff in LaTeX, you can ask for a section heading or a 
> subsection heading, and LaTeX will automatically take care of all 
> formatting for you. Indeed, it will even build a table of contents if 
> you want.
> 
> If you write stuff in HTML, you can also ask for various levels of 
> headings. And using CSS, you can tune exactly what the result looks 
> like. For example, if you suddenly decide that you want all the level 2 
> headings in italics, you can change 1 line of CSS and the whole document 
> is instantly updated to match.
> 
> And yet, no known word processor works like this.

MS Word does.  Change the style, and every piece of text with that style 
applied changes with it.

If you apply the heading styles to stuff in your documents, and then 
build a table of contents, it will be built from the header-styled items 
in the document.

Regards,
John
(who teaches computer literacy at the local high school)

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Orchid XP v7 wrote:
...
> (I am convinced that I cannot possibly be alone in hating that retched
> paperclip though!)

"The anti-Clippy Web site has gotten about 22 million hits since
launching April 11."

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2001-05-03-clippy-campaign.htm

=)

-- 
Tor Olav
http://subcube.com

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> The easiest way of learning to use software is not by complaining about 
> lack of
> manual, but by sitting in front of it for hours and getting the hang and 
> feel
> of it.  And be sure to not be reasonable:  force errors to learn with 
> them...

There's no getting around that it's a word processor with a steep learning
curve attached to it for no particular reason. I can think of numerous
"bad" features and outright bugs, at least in the version I have (2002).

Opening Word empties the windows clipboard.

Clicking on a .doc file opens Word but not the document.

Paste from IE explorer often causes a long pause as Word
does unneeded network fetching.

"Save as web page" is mostly unusable because it links in
an Active X control for viewing Word documents as well as
converting to HTML.

When printing to a networked printer there is no feedback
about the print job, success or failed, the print dialog just closes.
(resulting in numerous unwanted second and third copies)

When a local print job fails the system often all but locks up,
despite reboots, until you manually open the print queue from
the control panel and kill the job.

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> Sounds like you'd benefit from having a look at structured Framemaker, 
> then.

I miss FrameMaker. The only word processor that actually made sense and 
was controllable.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     Remember the good old days, when we
     used to complain about cryptography
     being export-restricted?

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Orchid XP v7 wrote:
> scott wrote:
>>> (I am convinced that I cannot possibly be alone in hating that 
>>> retched paperclip though!)
>>
>> You installed (or haven't uninstalled yet) *that* thing? o_O
> 
> ....it's removable??

I went about five years wondering what everyone was complaining about, 
as I'd never installed it in the first place in any of the many Word 
installs.

It's called "Office Assistant". Uncheck it in the setup.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     Remember the good old days, when we
     used to complain about cryptography
     being export-restricted?

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Invisible wrote:
> Isn't the answer obvious? "I don't".

Why would you think you can pick up a program as big as Word and intuit 
how it works?  Buy a book, dude. :-)

> Ah-hah. So there *is* a secret hidden tool for altering them! (At least, 
> there is in Word 2003.)

Yeah, the secret hidden tool for modifying styles is under the Styles 
menu, called Modify. ;-)

> Still puzzled as to why you have to open up a special window to do this. 
> (I.e., why you can't just click on the style you want to change.)

Go to Format->Styles, and right-click on one of the styles. Notice how 
you have "Modify this style" as well as "Modify this style to match the 
formatting of what's selected". What would you expect?

> then, this is from the program where you can't change any program 
> settings unless you have a document open. (WTF?)

Um, in mine I can, certainly. Just not stuff that's stored with a 
document, like, say, styles.

> (Ooo, that's nice... If I change a style to match an existing one, the 
> existing one gets deleted. And if I change the justification for the 
> Normal style, the other styles update. Pitty you can't explicitly say 
> which settings are applied in THIS style and which ones should just be 
> inherited...)

You can. That's why the modify-style dialog has things like "based on 
Normal" in the configuration.

> OK, no go. Word *refuses* to overwrite NORMAL.DOT because it's already 
> open. (Duh!) God I hate Word! >_<

Really. It's complicated enough you need to buy a book if you want to do 
more than the most trivial stuff. Or at least wander around in the help 
files, which are actually quite good.

For example, search the help for "Modify normal.dot". It gives you 
step-by-step instructions for editing it. They work.

> [Ironic, given that one of the things I was just talking about is that there *isn't*
a book...]

http://www.amazon.com/Word-2003-Dummies-Dan-Gookin/dp/0764539825

*That* wasn't hard.

> ....it's removable?? 

http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/783.html

> The main problem with M$ Word is that it tries to "guess" what you want to do so it
can automatically do it for you. 

At least in 2003, it makes it really easy to say "Don't do that here" 
and "Don't do that any more."  I notice in OO it brings up its own 
Clippy to tell you it did something, but not really offer to undo it for 
you. :-)



-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     Remember the good old days, when we
     used to complain about cryptography
     being export-restricted?

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Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
> Invisible wrote:
>> Invisible wrote:
>>
>>> I just downloaded "tex.web" and started reading it... Hmm, LOL!
>>
>> Oh wow... This stuff is really special.
> 
> Well yes, the day I'll try to make the world better with a new word 
> processor, I think I'll start from scratch...
> 
> Not that this day has come yet ;-)
> 
> TeX is admirable because of its lifespan, its stability, its low count 
> of bugs, but I think starting from its source would lead to a 
> derivative, but nothing radically new...

All I really want is the excellent formatting engine. (You know, the one 
that decides where to put all the linebreaks and stuff.) The rest of the 
thing - that whole macro expansion lot, the character "catcodes", the 
buggy image support, the buggy colour support, etc. - you can keep it! :-P

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And lo on Mon, 05 Nov 2007 16:55:41 -0000, Alain  
<ele### [at] netscapenet> did spake, saying:

> Invisible nous apporta ses lumieres en ce 2007/11/05 10:11:
>> Brian Elliott wrote:
>>
>>> Whinge, whinge, whinge.  :-P  :-)
>>> They do do it.  You just haven't figured it out.
>>  So, I figured out LaTeX and HTML (not to mention POV-Ray, the Lambda  
>> calculus, cryptography, inorganic chemistry, and much else besides) yet  
>> I couldn't figure out M$ Word?
>>  What does this say about M$ Word? ;-)
>>  (Come to think about it, one critical difference between Word and  
>> those other things is the lack of a *manual*. POV-Ray comes with an  
>> excellent manual, but Word only offers context help. Not very useful if  
>> you have no idea how a broad feature is supposed to work!)
>>
>
> There ARE manuals, many of them in fact. It's just that they are NOT  
> included with the product, some are very simples (Word for Dummy), and  
> some even come with a teacher ;)

Actually one is, it's called "Help" (not the context help). These are the  
top three topics I get from typing in "Style" - "Apply a different style",  
"Troubleshoot styles", and "Create a new style" that last one has another  
link to "formatting text by using styles" which gives you a step-by-step  
guide as to what they are and how they work.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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Orchid XP v7 wrote:

>>> (I am convinced that I cannot possibly be alone in hating that 
>>> retched paperclip though!)
>>
>> You installed (or haven't uninstalled yet) *that* thing? o_O
> 
> ...it's removable??

Well strap me to an eel and use me for a baseball bat... It seems that 
in Word 2003, the damn paper clip is gone! At least, I opened up the 
help system, and there was no paperclip there. And that's good enough 
for me... ;-)

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Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> Nicolas Alvarez wrote:

> >> Both Word and OpenOffice provide "styles", but good luck figuring out
> >> how to work them.
> >
> > I find it interesting that nobody on earth ever uses them. Come on, I
> > just decided all those headings on the 30-page document shouldn't be
> > centered. Go change them. Would take seconds using styles.
>
> Well, most people use Word to write 1-page documents. (Things like
> letters and printed notes, address labels, etc.) As for the rest, I
> guess it's just because it's so hard to figure out how this stuff
> actually works... [Assuming you even realise there's a useful thing to
> be learned about in the first place.]

Most people you know, you mean? :)

Since working in an office (~10 years) M$ Word has been my, and all projects

specifications for conformity of style. The outline view is very useful as are
the decrease and increase indents buttons. Add that to outline numbering and it
is a quite powerful feature.
You must try to press F1 before whinging. :)


Stephen

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