 |
|
|
|
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
Tim Cook wrote:
> Warp wrote:
>> If there's a law that says that spying on users without special permit
>> is not allowed, a license agreement saying "I give permission for the
>> police to spy on me" will not change the fact in any way. Such license
>> agreement is ineffective and invalid. At least in general here.
>
> So my freedom to choose to allow someone to spy on me is removed in the
> name of 'privacy'. In the end, we willingly giving up freedoms, as long
> as we know about it.
Yes, because most such contracts are contracts of adhesion. In other
words, you don't really have a choice what the terms are, because
there's no negotiating going on. Can you pay the ISP another $.50 a
month to not turn your records over to the police? No. Is there another
ISP in the region with the same speed and capability? No. Then it's
reasonable for the populace to get together and say "we disagree that
it's OK for you to force this choice upon us."
Welcome to society. Enjoy your stay. :-)
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Remember the good old days, when we
used to complain about cryptography
being export-restricted?
Post a reply to this message
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
scott wrote:
>>>> and that your use of the service constitutes agreement with this
>>>> policy.
>>>
>>> No agreement can go against the law. At least not here.
>>
>> I think that's, generally, the case everywhere. But lots of places
>> have a list of "this is how it works, *but* an agreement can change
>> that" sort of laws, so that makes it legal.
>
> Also they have things like
>
> A) You must not make copies and sell them.
> B) <some illegal requirement/agreement>
> C) ...
> ..
> Z) If any of the above terms are broken this license is terminated and
> you must return all software and media and you're not allowed to use the
> software blah blah blah
>
> I have an illegal clause in my job contract (about working for
> competitors), they can't do anything legally about it of course (unless
> they could show I had given away company confidential information), but
> they would be perfectly entitled to "terminate" my contract!
Not really. You didn't break clause B because clause B is is illegal to
include in the first place. The presence or absence of clause B is
irrelevant to the enforcability of the contract.
In any case, most contracts have clauses of severability, meaning they
have a clause that says "If any part of this contract is illegal, the
other parts still hold." Which means clause B, being illegal, would be
severed from the contract. This is an ass-cover so the company writing
the contract can sue you for breaching parts of it even if you manage to
prove an irrelevant part is illegal to include.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Remember the good old days, when we
used to complain about cryptography
being export-restricted?
Post a reply to this message
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
Tim Attwood wrote:
> The NSA has been listening to almost everyone for 50+ years,
> but they mostly stay out of local stuff, at least on paper.
In the USA, citizens (and to a different extent residents) have rather
different sets of rights w.r.t. government activity than foreigners in
the USA or outside it.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Remember the good old days, when we
used to complain about cryptography
being export-restricted?
Post a reply to this message
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
Tim Cook <z99### [at] bellsouth net> wrote:
> So my freedom to choose to allow someone to spy on me is removed in the
> name of 'privacy'.
Well, you have the freedom of not suing the one who spied on you...
--
- Warp
Post a reply to this message
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
scott <sco### [at] laptopcom> wrote:
> If it means the whole license is invalid, then that also means the parts
> that give you permission to use the software, and the parts about not
> copying it and selling it, giving public performances using it, hiring it
> out to people etc. Essentially your only option (legally) would be to send
> everything back and asking them to send a legal license agreement.
It wouldn't make too much sense for the entire license to become invalid
just because one point was invalid.
> If it means only the "no backup" clause is ineffective, then presumably
> there is another clause that says "if any of the other clauses are broken
> then the whole license is terminated", in which case you could use it as
> normal, but if you made a backup you'd terminate the license agreement and
> have to send the software back.
I'm sure that wouldn't hold in court.
--
- Warp
Post a reply to this message
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
scott wrote:
> If it means only the "no backup" clause is ineffective, then presumably
> there is another clause that says "if any of the other clauses are
> broken then the whole license is terminated", in which case you could
> use it as normal, but if you made a backup you'd terminate the license
> agreement and have to send the software back.
If the license is invalid, why would you have to send the software back?
Then (in the USA) it just turns into a copyright question. I.e., the use
and copying of the software is controlled by the laws that regulate what
you do with any other purchase you make without an explicit license,
like buying books or artwork or food or whatever.
If the license says you have to send it back, and the license is
invalid, then you wouldn't have to send it back.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Remember the good old days, when we
used to complain about cryptography
being export-restricted?
Post a reply to this message
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
> If the license is invalid, why would you have to send the software back?
> Then (in the USA) it just turns into a copyright question. I.e., the use
> and copying of the software is controlled by the laws that regulate what
> you do with any other purchase you make without an explicit license, like
> buying books or artwork or food or whatever.
What have you bought though if you haven't got a license to use the
software? A useless coaster? Or do you have a right to use software with
some "default" license that specifies how/where you can use it etc?
Post a reply to this message
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
And lo on Fri, 19 Oct 2007 05:33:55 +0100, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom>
did spake, saying:
> Tim Attwood wrote:
>> The NSA has been listening to almost everyone for 50+ years,
>> but they mostly stay out of local stuff, at least on paper.
>
> In the USA, citizens (and to a different extent residents) have rather
> different sets of rights w.r.t. government activity than foreigners in
> the USA or outside it.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,
until such time the government divides them up into different groups so
they can be dealt with in a way that pleases them. ;-)
--
Phil Cook
--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com
Post a reply to this message
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
scott wrote:
> What have you bought though if you haven't got a license to use the
> software?
The same thing you have if you bought a book without a license. Is a
book useless that way? How about a CD?
> A useless coaster? Or do you have a right to use software
> with some "default" license that specifies how/where you can use it etc?
You own it. You can use it however you like that doesn't violate
existing laws. (One would think copyright law would be the main one
you'd be able to violate with software, altho murdering someone by
bashing them over the head with the box is also probably illegal.)
IANAL.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
Remember the good old days, when we
used to complain about cryptography
being export-restricted?
Post a reply to this message
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
>>> By using the internet you are effectively agreeing that everyone else
>>> can
>>> see what you are doing.
>>
>> I see no law specifying this.
>
> It's not a case of law or not, it's the fact that you signed an
> agreement with the company that gives you access to the internet. If
> you don't agree with their terms, then use another ISP, or if you can't
> find one that you agree with then make your own ISP or don't use the
> internet.
>
Ahh that's the fun of ISPs around here. You could get an Internet
service after a few phone calls without ever seeing an agreement, let
alone signing it.
They call offering the service (=telemarketing!), you say yes, and a few
weeks later they come install it. Then you (the following is actual
experience) notice the price they're charging is like twice what they
offered. So you call. "I was told it would be 19.99 for the first three
months but I got charged 39.99 the first month!" and they go "Huh? We
have never had a 19.99 promotion..."
And how the heck do you prove what the marketing guy told you if you
have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in paper about the Internet service?
But then, if I get spied, "I never signed anything agreeing to that" :)
Post a reply to this message
|
|
| |
| |
|
|
|
|
| |
