On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:24:29 -0400, "Jim Kress"
<dea### [at] kressworkscom> wrote:

>I think I'll nail this to the door of the local Microsoft Certified Partner
>IT company and change my name to Martin Luther.

Hope you don't live in Vienna, then, or you'd have to deal with a mad
Bulgarian, and Pisces at that, a foe I wouldn't wish even for my foes.


Peter Popov ICQ : 15002700
Personal e-mail : pet### [at] vipbg
TAG      e-mail : pet### [at] tagpovrayorg

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On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 22:24:03 -0400, Timothy Cook wrote:
>nospam wrote:
>>         Also POV-Ray is a mathematicians toy.  :)
>
>Wouldn't you say, that programming is also a mathematician's toy, hence
>anything that's a programmer's toy is a mathematician's toy. ;)

As a mathematician, I would like to point out that I know lots of 
mathematicians who absolutely suck at programming.

-- 
#macro R(L P)sphere{L F}cylinder{L P F}#end#macro P(V)merge{R(z+a z)R(-z a-z)R(a
-z-z-z a+z)torus{1F clipped_by{plane{a 0}}}translate V}#end#macro Z(a F T)merge{
P(z+a)P(z-a)R(-z-z-x a)pigment{rgbf 1}hollow interior{media{emission 3-T}}}#end 
Z(-x-x.2x)camera{location z*-10rotate x*90normal{bumps.02scale.05}}

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Ron Parker wrote:
> 
> As a mathematician, I would like to point out that I know lots of
> mathematicians who absolutely suck at programming.

As a programmer, I would like to point out that I know lots of
programmers who absolutely suck at mathing.

Myself included. Not that I'm really bad as compared to most
people, but I don't have the passion. I think I could be better
if I cared.  ^_^

-- 
Adrien Beau - adr### [at] freefr - http://adrien.beau.free.fr
 Mes propos n'engagent que moi et en aucun cas mes employeurs

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> 
> On Thu, 20 Sep 2001 22:24:03 -0400, Timothy Cook wrote:
> >nospam wrote:
> >>         Also POV-Ray is a mathematicians toy.  :)
> >
> >Wouldn't you say, that programming is also a mathematician's toy, hence
> >anything that's a programmer's toy is a mathematician's toy. ;)
> 
> As a mathematician, I would like to point out that I know lots of
> mathematicians who absolutely suck at programming.

  I know of some, too... :) And also I know some very good programmers
who have never learned high maths, and even some that never finished the
school...

-- 
Jaime Vives Piqueres

La Persistencia de la Ignorancia
http://www.ignorancia.org/

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Adrien Beau wrote:
> Ron Parker wrote:
> > As a mathematician, I would like to point out that I know lots of
> > mathematicians who absolutely suck at programming.
> 
> As a programmer, I would like to point out that I know lots of
> programmers who absolutely suck at mathing.

...

The former case, I will not argue because that isn't what I was saying
(all x are y does not imply all y are x).

And...how do you program without math?  (Or, to be more specific, how
do you write a programming language without math?  This would make
programming a mathematician's toy at a more basic level.)

-- 
Tim Cook
http://empyrean.scifi-fantasy.com

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GFA dpu- s: a?-- C++(++++) U P? L E--- W++(+++)>$
N++ o? K- w(+) O? M-(--) V? PS+(+++) PE(--) Y(--)
PGP-(--) t* 5++>+++++ X+ R* tv+ b++(+++) DI
D++(---) G(++) e*>++ h+ !r--- !y--
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

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> The former case, I will not argue because that isn't what I was saying
> (all x are y does not imply all y are x).
>
> And...how do you program without math?  (Or, to be more specific, how
> do you write a programming language without math?  This would make
> programming a mathematician's toy at a more basic level.)

Math and programming DO intersect, but there still is a LOT of difference.
For me pure math is to weird, it's not fun for me to solve math problems.
Programming is another thing, sure you NEED math to solve problems, but it's
not like math for math. It's just the way...

--
#local a=.1sphere_sweep{catmull_rom_spline 18<3,3>a<1,3>a<0,0>a<1,3>a,x*2a
y,a<2.5,1.5>a<3,3>a,x*3a<3,3>a<4.5,2>a<3,1>a,x*4.5a<5.5,3>a,x*6a<4.5,2.5>a
<7,3>a<8,3>a scale a translate<-.35,-a,1>}background{rgb 1} // Artis

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"ART-is" <art### [at] aaaapollolv> wrote in message
news:3babc6d7@news.povray.org...
> > The former case, I will not argue because that isn't what I was saying
> > (all x are y does not imply all y are x).
> >
> > And...how do you program without math?  (Or, to be more specific, how
> > do you write a programming language without math?  This would make
> > programming a mathematician's toy at a more basic level.)
>
> Math and programming DO intersect, but there still is a LOT of difference.
> For me pure math is to weird, it's not fun for me to solve math problems.
> Programming is another thing, sure you NEED math to solve problems, but
it's
> not like math for math. It's just the way...

You can do a lot of programming without anything above highschool math (and,
with the trig and calc you get in high school, even that's overkill).  It
all depends on the application.

3d games, of course, will require a lot of trig.  A text editor will require
very little.

...Chambers

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Yes, I'm a lurker... I'll give you my $0.02 for whatever it's worth.

Personally, I came to POV *because* it's a "programmer's toy."  I like being
able to position stuff exactly and use the looping stuff to save myself
loads of time.  I've also beat myself against a couple trial versions of
modellers long enough to realize that they were too clumsy for me.  YMMV.

- Kevin

----------------------------------------------------------
"We can lick gravity, but sometimes the
paperwork is overwhelming."
-  Wernher Von Braun, rocketry pioneer


"Jamie Davison" <jam### [at] ntlworldcom> wrote in message
news:MPG.1611abca539fd5fd989a0f@news.povray.org...
> Is it just me, or does POV seem to be turning more and more into a
> programmers toy...
>
> I started back in the days of 2.2, when the requirements for using POV
> were more 3D geometry, but now, with Isosurfaces, loops etc. it seems to
> require programming skills to use to the full.
>
> I am not a programmer, this is why I use Moray to put scenes together,
> but this question was prompted by the number of people in the 'Most
> common way to make POV files?' thread that have said thay they write, or
> have written prgrams to output POV code.
>
> <sigh> Maybe I'm just bitter and twisted, but I'd still like to know what
> people think.
>
> Bye for now,
>      Jamie.

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Timothy Cook wrote:
> 
> Adrien Beau wrote:
> > Ron Parker wrote:
> > > As a mathematician, I would like to point out that I know lots of
> > > mathematicians who absolutely suck at programming.
> >
> > As a programmer, I would like to point out that I know lots of
> > programmers who absolutely suck at mathing.
> 
> And...how do you program without math?  (Or, to be more specific, how
> do you write a programming language without math?  This would make
> programming a mathematician's toy at a more basic level.)

I didn't say I program without math.

Adrien Beau wrote:
> 
> Not that I'm really bad as compared to most
> people, but I don't have the passion.

...means I can manage to survive some maths when it is needed.
But I won't do maths for the pleasure of it, contrary to
programming, which I'll sometimes do when there's no real
need for it.  :-)

That said, there are lots of eras where math is not really
required. It depends indeed on what you call programming.
You can manage to create a small graphical interface to
a database and code some logic into it without "hard" math.

-- 
Adrien Beau - adr### [at] freefr - http://adrien.beau.free.fr
 Mes propos n'engagent que moi et en aucun cas mes employeurs

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> Personally, I came to POV *because* it's a "programmer's toy."  I like
being
> able to position stuff exactly and use the looping stuff to save myself
> loads of time.  I've also beat myself against a couple trial versions of
> modellers long enough to realize that they were too clumsy for me.  YMMV.

Right, why turn the computer into a 3d scetchboard, it's far more powerfull.

--
#local a=.1sphere_sweep{catmull_rom_spline 18<3,3>a<1,3>a<0,0>a<1,3>a,x*2a
y,a<2.5,1.5>a<3,3>a,x*3a<3,3>a<4.5,2>a<3,1>a,x*4.5a<5.5,3>a,x*6a<4.5,2.5>a
<7,3>a<8,3>a scale a translate<-.35,-a,1>}background{rgb 1} // Artis

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