Some days ago I noticed that the homepage of the Giram software
(http://www.giram.org/) had a rather odd notification. This notification
has now changed (to some kind of public vendetta against me), but
it originally said, among other things:

"So GiRaM won't support pov files anymore until Povray become fully
GPLed. Their current license doesn't even allow me to read their
source to understand how to parse a pov file"

  I approached the author unofficially by email to clear this matter
(I honestly thought there was just some kind of misunderstanding).
The discussion that ensued was completely out of proportion, partly
due to the GPL advocacy of the Giram author and his unwillingness to
retract his claims about the POV-Ray license.

  Since the author is completely unwilling to stop his public loathing
of the POV-Ray license, the pov-team and myself, I made a page explaining
the details of our email exchanges (concentrating on the relevant facts).
It is rather long:

http://www.cs.tut.fi/~warp/giramvspovray.html


  Chris Cason has this to say:

"You may like to add that this sort of behaviour from GPL fanatics is what
turns me (and possibly other POV authors) against the GPL. Because that is
certainly true. And you can quote me on that."

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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"So GiRaM won't support pov files anymore until Povray become a fully 
free software."

No great loss in my book. Giram has gone nowhere for a very long time 
and it wasn't that useful or impressive to begin with IMO.

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Jeff Houck wrote:
> "So GiRaM won't support pov files anymore until Povray become a fully 
> free software."
> 
> No great loss in my book. Giram has gone nowhere for a very long time 
> and it wasn't that useful or impressive to begin with IMO.

I would like to add my two cents worth.

1) I never like to put down any hard work that someone has put into a 
program for the benefit of others, but I would be lying if I said that 
my opinion of Giram does not match the one above. The quality of the 
program in no way puts the author in a position to jab at the quality of 
a project such as Povray. It sadens me to see human nature in this form.

2) I am the author and maintainer of several GPL licensed projects, and 
am an advocate for the GPL, yet I have no problem with the way that 
Povray is currently licensed. I would like to see Povray released under 
an OSI license, but all in due course--let's face it, these things take 
time; time which should be spent wisely.
Which brings me to my next point. If the author of Giram expended as 
much energy into his software as it has taken to fuel this little 
rampage, he could easy have written the basics for a Povray SDL 
parser--or found someone else who would be willing to contribute toward it.

I say again that this sadens me, especially with the damage this sort of 
nonsense can cause to Povray, the GPL and the community as a whole.

Freedom of speach. Yes, all good and well. Freedom to bring down the 
human race. Shouldn't be allowed--but then again, shouldn't happen in 
the first place.

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Derrick J Houy <djh### [at] pawzaorg> wrote:
> Which brings me to my next point. If the author of Giram expended as 
> much energy into his software as it has taken to fuel this little 
> rampage, he could easy have written the basics for a Povray SDL 
> parser--or found someone else who would be willing to contribute toward it.

  I can fully understand his decision of not supporting pov-file importing
because it truely is a quite big job to create a fully-functional SDL
parser from the scratch, and I also fully understand that he thinks the
current licensing of povray is stupid because he can't take the parser from
povray directly, easing his work.
  He is, naturally, entitled to his opinions on the povray license and
I don't have any problems with those. If he thinks that the license sucks,
well, he has the right to think so.
  What I did not like, however, was that he publicly spread lies about
the povray license. These were not just opinions, but he seriously
claimed things about the povray license which are absolutely not true,
and such false information can be damaging to the reputation of povray.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Warp wrote:
>   Some days ago I noticed that the homepage of the Giram software
> (http://www.giram.org/) had a rather odd notification. This notification
> has now changed (to some kind of public vendetta against me), but
> it originally said, among other things:
> 

	I actually read just about every word of your web page explination of 
what happened.  And not knowing all of the details about this particular 
interaction, or others that may be similar and affect this one, I have a 
few observations.

There is a lot of miscommunication with this guy.
There is a lot of misunderstanding of the POV-Ray license.
He is a fanatical GPL 'free software' advocate.
Try as they may, the POV-Ray team can't prevent bad things being said.
A way to turn the monster on himself (somewhat)



Now, let me go into a bit of detail with each.

****
There is a lot of miscommunication with this guy.

	Warp, you tend to come across very blunt - 'I'm right, you're wrong.' 
While this may not be what you intend, it still happens.  Simply stating 
facts can shove something in someone's face that they are not ready to 
receive.  In fact, I might be doing it right now with this paragraph.
	You took all of the right steps in trying to understand the situation 
before contacting the guy.  But you probably came across bluntly when 
stating that he was wrong about the POV-Ray license.  Some people are 
better than others at taking it in different situations (for example, I 
can take it from a stranger, but not my wife - maybe I'm just too 
emotionally attached :-) ).  He already was emotionally charged about 
this issue, so it probably just added fuel to his fire.  He didn't care 
about what you were trying to tell him, he just cared about the fact 
that he felt salf being poured onto his wounds.
	So, while you were talking about technical points, he was talking about 
emotional points.  Even though he brings up technical points, it's all 
still emotion.  I've seen it happen between my wife and I - We will be 
arguing to hours thinking that we are talking about the same thing, only 
to find that I'm on point 1 and she is on point A.  Just different 
enough that we can't convey our ideas and get frustrated and argue. 
While this isn't the exact same thing, it is similar.
	For example, there was some talk about 'free' software in your 
discussions with him.  I've run across 2 distinct definitions - 1. free 
as in no cost 2. free as in no limitations.  From one point, Pov-RAY is 
completly free (no cost), but not completly free (a few limitations). 
If one argues one definition, and the other the other definition, 
clearly not the same thing is being talked about.
	So as the argument goes on, it only gets deeper and more frustrating 
because you can't make the other understand your point.



****
There is a lot of misunderstanding of the POV-Ray license.

This guy is disappointed and frustrated that he didn't get what he 
wants.  Therefore in his own sick was he has a vendetta against POV-Ray 
and can twist anything to be for him and against what he is coming to 
hate.  I see people do it all of the time - with enough fervor one can 
find something to support their idea from a rock.
	Everyone twists what they read because they have to interpret it - you 
did it when disecting his emails and the whole converation.  But some 
people actually are mature enough to limit how much it happens and try 
their best to understand what is actually being said.  You made a good 
attempt at this.  He clearly failed to even attempt to do so.  He let 
his high emotion do the interpreting.

****
He is a fanatical GPL 'free software' advocate.

   He operates in a world where everything should be free - GPL is god. 
  Thus, anything that isn't GPL sucks.  He ran across something that 
seemed free (no limitations) only to find some - therefore it sucks. 
That's fine, he's allowed to believe what he wants, but it's sad to see 
someone exclude a lot of good software just becaus eit doesn't meet his 
particular flavor of free software.

on a side note - POV-Ray was the first software that I ran across that 
was not public domain, but allowed for modifications and copying.


****
Try as they may, the POV-Ray team can't prevent bad things being said.


	People are going to take from POV-Ray what they will.

	Some hate it because it has no GUI interface.  Others don't like it 
becuase it is not completly free (no limitations).  Some hate it because 
it competes with their favorite rendering package.  Others are 
frustrated that feature 'x' has not been implemented.
	A lot of people love it because it is flexible.  Some like because it 
is free (no cost).  A lot of people like the text interface.  Some love 
it because it is purely mathematical - no tessilation.


	Some of these people are going to feel so strongly about their feelings 
that they will voice them in the loudest way possible.  I've found that 
there is actually a lot more positive things said than negative.  That's 
saying a lot since it is 10x easier to get someone to say something 
negative than to say something positive.



****
A way to turn the monster on himself (somewhat).

You quoted his web site - and I visited it.  He has a link to your web 
site that people are likely to follow.  Here's a few suggestions that 
might get people ro read more of the story than his BS.

"I formerly explained here why I couldn't include a pov file loader, but 
I've been bugged by someone from tag.povray.org, namely Juha Nieminen 
<(My email address)> asking me to remove any explanation."


If possible, determine of someone viewing your website came from his - 
display a different page rebuffing his statement.

OR

Just put a link to the rebuff in the list of links you already have. 
You only would have to have the link as long as his web site links to 
you in this manner.

OR

do nothing

****

That's my worthless 2 coins on the subject.  Anyone, reply as you wish - 
I'll do the same.

LAter... Tom

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Tom Austin <taustin> wrote:
> If possible, determine of someone viewing your website came from his - 
> display a different page rebuffing his statement.

  Good idea. I did exactly that. Now if someone clicks on the link
on his giram page (and supposing his browser sends referer info)
the giramvspovray page will be given.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Warp wrote:
> Tom Austin <taustin> wrote:
> 
>>If possible, determine of someone viewing your website came from his - 
>>display a different page rebuffing his statement.
> 
> 
>   Good idea. I did exactly that. Now if someone clicks on the link
> on his giram page (and supposing his browser sends referer info)
> the giramvspovray page will be given.
> 

  :-)

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